CIM#103: Pension Transferability and Access to MPF, and Delays in PR and Visas for Hong Kongers

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all three of the witnesses, from Canada-Hong Kong Link, VSSDM and Hong Kong Watch, not just for appearing today but for your ongoing work in support of Hong Kongers. I truly, deeply appreciate that.

My first question is around the interim measure. The government has announced that its interim measure is really meant to be a bridging process. However, related to that and as we heard, what Hong Kongers really need is permanent resident status.

Related to the permanent resident status are the immigration level numbers, because the level planned this year under the categories of H and C and protected persons is set at 13,500. Next year it will be at 8,000, and the following year it will be at 8,000 also.

In light of those limitations, in order to facilitate the processing of applications for PR for Hong Kongers, would the government need to change the immigration level numbers and have a dedicated path for Hong Kongers?

I'm going to start with you, Andy, please.

Citizenship and Immigration Committee on June 3rd, 2024
Evidence of meeting #103 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session.
(The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.)

11:45 a.m.

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

That was right on six minutes. Thank you.

Now we'll go to Madam Kwan.

Madam Kwan, go ahead, please, for six minutes.

Please mention who you want to question first; I would appreciate that. Thank you.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all three of the witnesses, from Canada-Hong Kong Link, VSSDM and Hong Kong Watch, not just for appearing today but for your ongoing work in support of Hong Kongers. I truly, deeply appreciate that.

My first question is around the interim measure. The government has announced that its interim measure is really meant to be a bridging process. However, related to that and as we heard, what Hong Kongers really need is permanent resident status.

Related to the permanent resident status are the immigration level numbers, because the level planned this year under the categories of H and C and protected persons is set at 13,500. Next year it will be at 8,000, and the following year it will be at 8,000 also.

In light of those limitations, in order to facilitate the processing of applications for PR for Hong Kongers, would the government need to change the immigration level numbers and have a dedicated path for Hong Kongers?

I'm going to start with you, Andy, please.

 

Andy Wong
President, Canada-Hong Kong Link

I think the problem is that, yes, IRCC is saying that the immigration level plan is a problem, but I'm really not sure, because in 2021 and 2022, the PR admissions numbers were actually way above the high range of the target for H and C.

Then, last year, there was 10% that was not used, so is the target really that important? I'm really not sure. I'm really puzzled, and I think the public is also puzzled in this case.

However, if that actually affects the allocation of resources and all that stuff, then yes, of course, they should increase it. If decreasing the target means fewer resources in the coming years, then no, that is not dealing with the problem.

Thank you.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you.

I'll go to Aileen, and then I'll go to Mabel on Zoom for the same question, please.

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you.

Madam Calverley, and then Madam Tung, please, go ahead.

 

Aileen Calverley
Co-Founder and Chair, Hong Kong Watch

Thank you.

The admissions target for this year is 13,750. The upper range will be 18,000.

Our research is showing that for all categories under humanitarian, only 65% actually use up the admissions target. I don't know what's going on. Even if they do it at 100%, they still cannot process them. There are 9,000 applications pending.

I think it is a very good suggestion to take the Hong Kong pathway outside of the four categories, so we'd have a separate category to approve all of the PR applications as soon as possible. Otherwise, with 60,000 applicants and only 10,000 approved now, it will take a few decades to approve the rest of the 50,000 PR applications.

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you.

Mabel, please go ahead.

 

Mabel Tung
Chair, Vancouver Society in Support of Democratic Movement

Thank you.

I agree with the last two speakers, but I think it has to be increased in humanitarian and compassionate numbers as well.

However, one thing I want to emphasize.... Someone just mentioned May 27. That extended the work permit. What I heard from Hong Kongers in Vancouver is that none of them were able to get the extension because of the AOR. I think the department should look into it and see if there's anything it can do to improve this process. Otherwise, you put the policy out, but nobody benefits from it.

Thank you.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you for that.

Related to this issue, one of the things the government has not done is automatically extend people's work permits. If it were to do that, I think it would save a lot of resources for the department, and then you would ensure that people can seamlessly continue their work.

This question is for all of the witnesses, in the same order they answered before. Would you call on the government to automatically renew Hong Kongers' work or study permits?

Alternatively, would you automatically provide them with an open work permit so they don't have to go through an application process, as is required right now?

 

Andy Wong
President, Canada-Hong Kong Link

I absolutely support that. That will help the people who are currently in maintained status, but that is not the final goal.

Thank you.

 

Aileen Calverley
Co-Founder and Chair, Hong Kong Watch

I think for those who have an OWP, or open work permit, it's possible, but for those with a spousal open work permit, it may not be possible. This is because a lot of permits actually expire after eight months, so it will be a difficult task for this group of people.

 

Mabel Tung
Chair, Vancouver Society in Support of Democratic Movement

Yes. No matter what, I agree 100% with automatically renewing work permits.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you to all of the witnesses for the comments.

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you very much, Madam Kwan.

For the second round, we will go with four minutes for the Conservatives, four minutes for the Liberals, two minutes for the Bloc and two minutes for the NDP.

We'll start with Mr. Kmiec. You have four minutes. Please, go ahead.

 

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12:05 p.m.

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you very much, Mr. Wong and Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

We'll go to Madam Kwan.

Madam Kwan, go ahead for two minutes, please.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you very much.

On the mandatory provident fund, the fact is that when they prove that they're permanently leaving the territory and have no intention of returning, BNO visa holders are legally permitted to withdraw their savings once they provide proof that they have departed Hong Kong.

However, this is the situation: They can't access their pension funds. What do you think the Canadian government can do with respect to holding Canadian banking agencies accountable in following the law?

I'll start with Aileen, please, on this question, and then we'll go around.

 

Aileen Calverley
Co-Founder and Chair, Hong Kong Watch

Thank you.

I think the government really needs to put pressure on our financial institutions. It is a pure injustice. These people are PRs in Canada, but just because they have a BNO passport, they cannot access their funds. It is an outrageous injustice. For people in the U.K., the U.K. BNO visa is another scheme leading to citizenship, not only permanent residence. That should be proof of permanently leaving Hong Kong.

I want to add that for the change for the PR card, it should be “HKG” instead of “CHN”. That would be better. “HKG” means “Hong Kong”. Our colleague actually got the new PR card. She has a Hong Kong passport, so it's under HKG.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you.

In terms of accountability from banking institutions, what measures do you think need to be taken, more specifically? They're violating the law, as far as I can understand. What authority do they have to withhold people's pension funds?

Maybe we'll try Andy and then Mabel on that question.

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Mr. Wong, go ahead, please, quickly.

 

Andy Wong
President, Canada-Hong Kong Link

My understanding is that financial institutions operating in Hong Kong are in a situation whereby they're asked to comply with two sets of laws: one in Hong Kong and one in Canada.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Yes, but these are Canadian banking institutions.

 

Andy Wong
President, Canada-Hong Kong Link

The problem is whether the Canadian banking institutions are actually standing for Canadian values. That is the question that needs to be asked.

Thank you.

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Madam Tung, the time is up, but please go ahead.

 

Mabel Tung
Chair, Vancouver Society in Support of Democratic Movement

I think whatever the situation is in Hong Kong, it can't be controlled by our government, but inside Canada I think our government should put more pressure on our banking industry to respect our Canadian values and make sure that Hong Kongers are able to access those funds.

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you.

On behalf of the committee members, I want to thank Mr. Wong, Madam Calverley and Madam Tung for being here with us and sharing their thoughts.

Thank you. We'll suspend for five minutes for the second panel.

 

------

 

12:45 p.m.

The Vice-Chair Brad Redekopp
Conservative

Thank you very much.

Madam Kwan, you have six minutes.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you very much.

I just want to be clear on the record with both of the witnesses. Is it the case that not one person has had their application rejected for the early withdrawal of their pensions as a result of being a BNO visa holder?

 

Laura Hewitt
Vice-President and Head, Global Government Affairs and Public Policy,
Sun Life Financial Services of Canada Inc.

To clearly state, if they have Canadian permanent residency or Canadian citizenship, regardless of which visa they have, they are eligible and we are approving all of those applications. If they do not have proof of the ability to permanently reside outside of Hong Kong, we are unable to process those applications until such time as they meet that criterion for proof of permanent departure.

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Madam Greenwood.

 

MaryScott Greenwood
Global Head, Government Relations, The Manufacturers Life Insurance Company

I think the confusion is about what constitutes citizenship and permanent residency, because that in fact is a criterion for permanent departure from Hong Kong. It's also a criterion if someone were leaving Canada or the United States for that matter, but in this case, in the case of the BNO visa, it doesn't convey citizenship, so that's a question for governments to answer with respect to permanent residency applications. That's not something that a company can address.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

I know this is outside of our jurisdiction. However, in the case of BNO visa holders in the U.K.—I actually was one, once upon a time—if they've been out of the country for five years plus one, in the U.K. they are deemed automatically to be citizens.

Has anybody from either of your companies been rejected for early withdrawal of their pensions in the U.K.?

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Madam Greenwood and then Madam Hewitt.

 

MaryScott Greenwood
Global Head, Government Relations, The Manufacturers Life Insurance Company

I don't have in front of me the U.K. processing numbers, I can get them for you, but in the case of Canada, the BNO designation is not relevant, actually, in whether an application is processed or not processed. It's based on other criteria, including permanent residency or citizenship in Canada.

I'd be happy to get the information and the data on the U.K. for the member.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you. If we could get that, it would be appreciated. For Sun Life, can we get that data as well?

 

Laura Hewitt
Vice-President and Head, Global Government Affairs and Public Policy,
Sun Life Financial Services of Canada Inc.

Yes, so my 14,590 applications, that is worldwide that I'm speaking to with the 97.5% approval rate, but then when I specifically speak about approving all Canadian permanent residents and Canadian citizens, that's Canada-specific.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

The requirement for permanent resident status or citizenship in another country.... Is that a requirement internal to the bank or is that legislated in law? That's for both witnesses.

 

MaryScott Greenwood
Global Head, Government Relations,
The Manufacturers Life Insurance Company

In the financial services sector we're highly regulated, and nearly everything we do is set forth in laws and regulations. The evidence of permanent departure is something that is in the regulations in each of the jurisdictions in which we operate, including this one.

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Madam Hewitt.

 

Laura Hewitt
Vice-President and Head, Global Government Affairs and Public Policy,
Sun Life Financial Services of Canada Inc.

Yes, so the criteria are outlined by the regulator and we must follow those criteria as outlined. Each country obviously has a different form of permanent departure, and obviously in the Canadian case, I'm speaking to the permanent residency and citizenship.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Have any of you been instructed or directed by the Hong Kong government or the Chinese government to not process BNO visa holders' requests for early pension withdrawal?

 

Laura Hewitt
Vice-President and Head, Global Government Affairs and Public Policy,
Sun Life Financial Services of Canada Inc.

The regulator has set out the criteria and set out what constitutes permanent departure, so in this case the BNO visa on its own is not considered permanent departure, but once a person has permanent residency, that is considered permanent departure.

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Madam Greenwood.

 

MaryScott Greenwood
Global Head, Government Relations, The Manufacturers Life Insurance Company

If I understand the question correctly, when a customer wants to access their pension early, they apply to us and we do the first processing.

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Madam Kwan, do you want clarity on something?

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you. I think my question was a simple yes or no question. It's whether or not the Hong Kong authority or the Chinese government has spoken with any of your agencies about withholding early withdrawal pension funds for BNO visa holders. It's a yes or no question.

 

MaryScott Greenwood
Global Head, Government Relations, The Manufacturers Life Insurance Company

The answer to that is no. We interact with governments around the world and regulators, but no. I think the direct answer to your question is no, if I understand it properly.

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Madam Hewitt.

 

Laura Hewitt
Vice-President and Head, Global Government Affairs and Public Policy,
Sun Life Financial Services of Canada Inc.

No. They've set out the criteria, and that's what we're following, but they have not directed us.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
LNDP

What's the processing time for the applications? What's your average processing time?

 

Laura Hewitt
Vice-President and Head, Global Government Affairs and Public Policy,
Sun Life Financial Services of Canada Inc.

That is a good question. I don't have that information in front of me, but I do know that we are processing them expeditiously. It's not a very long wait time for those who are eligible.

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you.

Madam Greenwood.

 

MaryScott Greenwood
Global Head, Government Relations,
The Manufacturers Life Insurance Company

I don't know the answer to the processing time. It assumes that all the documentation is complete and that your application is ready to go. I can absolutely get that for the member.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you very much.

I would appreciate it if we could get that information from both of the witnesses. I just want to reconfirm that request.

How much more time do I have?

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

You have about 14 seconds.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Okay. Perhaps I'll just make a quick comment.

I think the problem lies here. If the requirement is that people have to show that they have a PR application or have received their PR card before they can get their pension.... Those who are fleeing Hong Kong right now are actually in desperate need of access to their funds in order to survive before they get their PR. It brings us back to the point that this interim program that the federal government has announced—and we don't know how long it's going to take—is not going to help people, because they will not be able to access their pension funds. That means they have to expedite the PR application process. That's the only way they can access their funds.

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you very much, Madam Kwan.

We will go to the second round: four minutes, four minutes, two minutes, two minutes.

Mr. Kmiec seems to be ready.

Please go ahead for four minutes.

 

--------

 1:05 p.m.

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you very much, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe. That was one minute and 50 seconds.

Madam Kwan, please go ahead.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

I have two quick questions.

First, outside of your companies, which make the decision about whether or not someone can have an early withdrawal of their pension, is there another authority that could make that decision, to supersede it or override it?

The other question is, are there provisions within your consideration for persecuted people who may request early withdrawal, even though they may not have PR or citizenship in another country but are in the process of seeking a pathway for permanent residence or citizenship in another country?

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Madam Greenwood.

 

MaryScott Greenwood
Global Head, Government Relations,
The Manufacturers Life Insurance Company

From where we sit, we're not in a position to be able to fast-track someone's permanent residency application or citizenship in any country in the world. That, of course, is something that governments have to consider themselves.

Once that has been established, we're able to process the early fund withdrawal. Otherwise, we hold the pensions for our customers until they are able to withdraw them.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Yes, but I'm a little bit frustrated. That wasn't my question.

My question was, are there provisions within your consideration that will grant people this ability to have an early withdrawal as they are in the process of seeking permanent residence or citizenship in another country? I'm talking about people who are perhaps asylum seekers, who are being persecuted. Is there any consideration for that?

I just want a straight-up answer to my question and then also a straight-up answer with respect to whether there is any authority that could either supersede your decision in advance or override it afterwards.

 

MaryScott Greenwood
Global Head, Government Relations,
The Manufacturers Life Insurance Company

We abide by laws and regulations in the jurisdiction in which we operate all around the world, as you would expect us to do as a highly regulated industry. There's nothing that supersedes that. We abide by the regulations for financial services, as everyone in the industry does for the benefit, by the way, and the protection of our customers and of their pensions.

I think that was the question, if I got it right.

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you.

Madam Hewitt, do you want to contribute to this question?

 

Laura Hewitt
Vice-President and Head, Global Government Affairs and Public Policy,
Sun Life Financial Services of Canada Inc.

I can answer maybe just the first part of the question, which was on the process for the approval.

The trustee is the first one to review the applications. That's the normal course. The application for early departure comes in to the trustee, and we verify whether the application has met those three criteria that have been outlined.

Once we have verified that, we forward the application to the MPFA, the regulator, and they confirm that the applicant has not previously accessed the permanent departure stream, because we do not have access to an applicant's entire history. We just have their current history. The MPFA reviews from that perspective.

That's the process.

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you very much.

On behalf of the committee members, I want to thank Ms. Hewitt and Ms. Greenwood for being with us.

Thank you. The very best to you.

With this, I would like to adjourn the meeting.

The meeting is adjourned.

 

Click this link to read the full transcript of the committee meeting:

https://openparliament.ca/committees/immigration/44-1/103/?singlepage=1

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FINA#147: Bill C-69 on Concerns Around Expanding Immigration Detention into Federal Prisons

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I will speak to it very briefly.

As I was indicating, on March 13, over 80 civil societies, settlement agencies and religious organizations wrote a strongly worded letter to the Prime Minister with their concerns around expanding immigration detention into federal prisons.

Earlier today, the provisions around setting up this format were passed, but with that being said, this amendment is an attempt by the NDP to at least try to put some parameters within that framework, to have “high risk” clearly defined in legislation rather than leaving it up to regulation and having it be defined behind closed doors.

To that end, Mr. Chair, that's what the amendment seeks to do. The definition of “high risk” is really meant to provide some limitations around what would be deemed as high risk in this instance.

Mr. Chair, I just want to highlight a couple of elements within that. I won't, of course, read the entire amendment into the record here.

Really, we attempted to put some parameters there as to the nature and level of danger to the public the person poses related to, for example, any conviction to do with sexual offences or an offence involving violence or weapons and for the same conviction outside of Canada. As well, there are provisions with regard to pending charges for these offences. Also, we wanted to put parameters around engagement with terrorism or gang activities and such.

Mr. Chair, I think these are some of the provisions for declaring what is deemed to be “high risk” in that context.

The other thing worth noting here is that we're also adding to this with an amendment around mental health; when considering these matters, the mental health aspect of the individual should also be taken into consideration. That's written within the amendment here.

Of course, there are some accountability measures related to it, which means that when someone is to be detained, there has to be some level of accountability with respect to written notice advising the individual as such and then, of course, allowing the individual to undertake representation if they seek to do so.

That's a quick summary of where it is at in terms of trying to put these parameters in place.

Are you ready to take action?

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