AFGH#1: First meeting of Special Committee on Afghanistan

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Afghanistan Committee on Dec. 13th, 2021
Evidence of meeting #1 for Afghanistan in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session

7:25 p.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Ms. Miriam Burke

Honourable members of the committee, I see quorum.

I must inform the members that the clerk of the committee can only receive motions for the election of the chair. The clerk cannot receive other types of motions, entertain points of order or participate in debate.

We can now proceed to the election of the chair.

Pursuant to the order adopted by the House on December 8, 2021, the chair must be a member of the government party.

I am ready to receive motions for the chair.

Ms. Zahid.

Salma Zahid Scarborough Centre, ON
Liberal

I would like to nominate Mr. Dhaliwal for the position of the chair.

The Clerk

It has been moved by Ms. Zahid that Mr. Dhaliwal be elected as chair of the committee.

Are there further motions?

None being seen, is it the will of the committee to adopt the motion?

(Motion agreed to)

I declare the motion carried and Mr. Dhaliwal duly elected chair of the committee.

I invite the chair to take the chair.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Good evening.

I want to thank each and every one of you for giving me an opportunity to chair this meeting. I would also like to thank Madam Clerk for presiding over the meeting earlier.

I also welcome two analysts. We have Ms. Allison Goody and Ms. Julie Béchard, as well as the other support staff.

If the committee is in agreement, I will invite the clerk to proceed with the election of the vice-chairs. The first vice-chair will be from the official opposition. The second vice-chair will be from an opposition party other than the official opposition party.

The Clerk

Pursuant to the order adopted by the House on December 8, 2021, there shall be one vice-chair from each of the other recognized parties.

I am now prepared to receive motions for the vice-chair from the official opposition.

Ms. Findlay.

Kerry-Lynne Findlay South Surrey—White Rock, BC
Conservative

Madam Clerk, I nominate the honourable Michael Chong as vice-chair.

7:25 p.m.

↓

The Clerk

It has been moved by Ms. Findlay that Mr. Chong from the official opposition be elected as vice-chair of the committee.

Are there any further motions?

None being seen, is it the will of the committee to adopt the motion?

(Motion agreed to)

I declare the motion carried and Mr. Chong duly elected vice-chair of the committee from the official opposition.

I'm now prepared to receive motions

for the position of vice‑chair of the committee for the Bloc Québécois.

Mr. El‑Khoury, the floor is yours.

Fayçal El-Khoury Laval—Les Îles, QC
Liberal

I nominate Mr. Duceppe.

The Clerk

Mr. El‑Khoury moved that Mr. Duceppe—

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Bloc

My name is Brunelle‑Duceppe. Otherwise, you will have my father, and that may not be a good idea.

The Clerk

I apologize.

Mr. El‑Khoury moved that Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe be elected vice‑chair of the committee for the Bloc Québécois.

(Motion agreed to)

I declare the motion carried and Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe duly elected vice‑chair of the committee for the Bloc Québécois.

I'm now prepared to receive motions for the vice-chair from the NDP.

Mr. Chong.

Michael Chong Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
Conservative

Mr. Chair, I nominate Ms. Jenny Kwan for the position of vice-chair.

The Clerk

It has been moved by Mr. Chong that Ms. Kwan be elected vice-chair of the committee from the NDP.

Is it the will of the committee to adopt the motion?

(Motion agreed to)

Ms. Kwan is duly elected NDP vice-chair.

Mr. Chair.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you, Madam Clerk.

Welcome to meeting number one of the House of Commons Special Committee on Afghanistan.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application, but of course all of them are present here today. Regardless, for the speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do the best we can to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether participating virtually or in person.

I would like to take this opportunity to remind all participants to this meeting that screenshots or taking photos of your screen is not permitted.

The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website.

Given the ongoing pandemic situation and in light of the recommendations from public health authorities, as well as the directive of the Board of Internal Economy on October 19, 2021, to remain healthy and safe, the following is recommended for all those attending the meeting in person. Anyone with symptoms should participate by Zoom and not attend the meeting in person. Everyone must maintain two metres of physical distance, whether seated or standing. Everyone must wear a non-medical mask when circulating in the room. It is recommended in the strongest possible terms that members wear their masks at all times, including when seated. Non-medical masks, which provide better clarity over cloth masks, are available in this room at the back.

Everyone present must maintain proper hand hygiene by using the hand sanitizer at the room entrance. Committee rooms are cleaned before and after each meeting. To maintain this, everyone is encouraged to clean surfaces such as desks, chairs and microphones with the provided disinfectant wipes when vacating or taking a seat.

As chair, I will be enforcing these measures for the duration of the meeting, and I thank all members in advance for their co-operation.

I also would like to congratulate Mr. Chong, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe and Madam Jenny Kwan on being the vice-chairs. I'm looking forward to working with each and every one of you.

Is there any other business?

I have Madam Zahid.

Salma Zahid Scarborough Centre, ON
Liberal

Thank you, Chair, and congratulations on being elected as chair. I'm looking forward to working with you.

With your permission, may I read the routine motions?

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Yes. Please go ahead.

Salma Zahid Scarborough Centre, ON
Liberal

I'll read them one by one and then we can go from there.

The first one is on analyst services. I move:

That the committee retain, as needed and at the discretion of the Chair, the services of one or more analysts from the Library of Parliament to assist it in its work.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Madam Clerk, do you want to elaborate on these routine motions?

The Clerk

No, thank you.

Salma Zahid Scarborough Centre, ON
Liberal

Should I read them one by one or all together?

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

We can do them all together if that is the will of the committee.

Michael Chong Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
Conservative

Why don't we just adopt them one by one?

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Okay.

(Motion agreed to)

Salma Zahid Scarborough Centre, ON
Liberal

On the subcommittee on agenda and procedure, I move:

That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be established and be composed of the Chair, one member from each recognized party; and that the subcommittee work in a spirit of collaboration.

(Motion agreed to)

Salma Zahid Scarborough Centre, ON
Liberal

On meeting without a quorum, I move:

That the Chair be authorized to hold meetings to receive evidence and to have that evidence published when a quorum is not present, provided that at least four members are present, including two members of the opposition parties and two members of the government party, but when travelling outside the Parliamentary Precinct, that the meeting begin after 15 minutes, regardless of members present.

(Motion agreed to)

Salma Zahid Scarborough Centre, ON
Liberal

The next motion deals with time for opening remarks and questioning of witnesses. I move:

That witnesses be given five minutes for their opening statement; that whenever possible, witnesses provide the committee with their opening statement 72 hours in advance; that at the discretion of the Chair, during the questioning of witnesses, there be allocated six minutes for the first questioner of each party as follows for the first round: Conservative Party, Liberal Party, Bloc Québécois, New Democratic Party. For the second and subsequent rounds, the order and time for questioning be as follows: Conservative Party, five minutes; Liberal Party, five minutes; Bloc Québécois, two and a half minutes; New Democratic Party, two and a half minutes; Conservative Party, five minutes; Liberal Party, five minutes.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Ms. Kwan, do you have a question?

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

I do, Mr. Chair. I just want to see whether or not there is any appetite from committee members for the following. I know that in other committees, when we go to the second round, as we sort of wrap-up, oftentimes the chair would actually allow the Bloc and the NDP to have one last minute to round up the rotation.

I want to see whether or not there's appetite from committee members to follow that practice, which has been done at some other committees I've sat on.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Is there any discussion on what Ms. Kwan has brought forward?

It is at the discretion of the chair. If every other party agrees, I don't see any issues.

Go ahead, Mr. El-Khoury.

Fayçal El-Khoury Laval—Les Îles, QC
Liberal

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to ask Ms. Kwan, if it's possible, what committee uses this practice?

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

In the last Parliament, it was the committee that I sat on as a substitute, actually. I was a deputy health critic. The health committee, for example, adopted that.

At the CIMM committee, we also went through rotations where the chair from that committee also engaged in that practice.

Those are two committees with which I have experience.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal

I will recognize Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, and then I'll come back to the other speakers.

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

I would like to add something.

In the Subcommittee on International Human Rights, speaking time in the second round is divided equally among all parties. I think that's even better, but that's not even what we are asking for here. Since the committee was created unanimously and the amendment and the motion were also passed unanimously, I think we can all be wise together and accept this proposal from the NDP.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal

Parliamentary Secretary Damoff, please go ahead.

Pam Damoff Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Liberal

That's so formal.

In committees that I've sat on before, which were not those ones, it wasn't in the routine motions. However, the chair always did do that, and sometimes, if we were running out of time, he would shorten the time to three minutes per party.

There's lots of discretion for the chair to do that, and there's certainly the will to hear from all parties. I don't know that we actually need to amend the routine motion, but given the discretion the chair has, there's certainly a desire to hear from everybody when we have the time.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Go ahead, Mrs. Zahid.

Salma Zahid Scarborough Centre, ON
Liberal

Thank you, Chair.

Ms. Kwan referred to the citizenship and immigration committee. We had nothing in the routine motion in regard to that. It is at the discretion of the chair, and we have full confidence in you that, based on the meeting and how much time is left, we will work collaboratively to see if there is a need.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Mr. Chong.

Michael Chong Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
Conservative

Thank you.

I think the principle of committee is the same as the principle in the House, which is that every member should have equal time, other than the chair, of course, to provide commentary or to ask questions of witnesses. There are four Conservative members of this committee and we only have three slots in the first 49 minutes of questions and comments from members. If you add to that five to 10 minutes of statements from witnesses at the opening, it means that in the first hour—we only have three of four slots—one of our members will be denied a slot in the first hour on this routine motion as it currently was agreed to by the whips. I don't support anything that would detract from the ability of my colleagues here to have time for questions or comments.

I note that the New Democratic Party has two slots as it stands in the routine motions, and the time allocated to the New Democratic Party, which is eight and a half minutes out of 49 minutes, is above their standing in the House of Commons. I don't think we should derivate or deviate from what has been proposed in the routine motions. The whips have agreed to it for a reason. It's fair to even the smaller parties in the House. In fact, it accords more time to the smaller recognized parties in the House than their standing would warrant. Any dilution beyond that means that our members here—and the Liberal members, frankly—get even less time for questions and comments at committee meetings.

Thank you.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you, honourable Mr. Chong.

I don't see a consensus.

Madam Kwan, do you want me to take a vote, or do you want to leave it to my discretion as chair?

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Mr. Chair, I would support leaving it to your discretion. I would certainly hope that we can follow the practice I've suggested.

I know, Mr. Chair, that you were also on the CIMM committee, so you would have seen how that was done previously as well.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
NDP

Thank you.

I will take the vote on the original motion proposed by Madam Zahid.

(Motion agreed to)

We will have the next motion, please.

7:45 p.m.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you, Madam Zahid.

Madam Kwan has the floor. I will ask Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe to speak second.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to move an additional motion for the committee's consideration in relation to the in camera meetings. It would be helpful for us to have clear parameters on what items should be dealt with in camera, so that we don't end up spending valuable time debating what should and shouldn't be in camera.

To that end, I move:

That the committee may meet in camera only for the following purposes:

(a) to consider a draft report;

(b) to attend briefings concerning national security;

(c) to consider lists of witnesses; and

(d) for any other reason with the unanimous consent of the committee.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you.

I'll recognize Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Bloc

We'll wait for that.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you.

Is there any discussion on this motion?

If there is no discussion, I would like to take a vote.

Michael Chong Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
Conservative

Mr. Chair, could I speak?

On this proposal, the difficulty with it is that it says that all votes taken in camera....

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

I didn't move that part.

Michael Chong Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
Conservative

You didn't move that part. That's what I have here in front of me.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

I only moved (a) to (d). Shall I repeat it, Mr. Chair?

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Sure. I think it's better to be clear.

Go ahead, Madam Zahid.

Salma Zahid Scarborough Centre, ON

Do we have that motion? Is it available in both languages?

AS SPOKEN

7:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal

I'll ask Madam Clerk. In the meantime, I would acknowledge Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

Did you want to add something?

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

We'll have to wait and see what happens to Ms. Kwan's motions, because I have another motion.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal

I would like to deal with Madam Kwan's motion first, and then I'll come back to yours.

Mr. El-Khoury, you have.... Is it on Madam Kwan's motion?

Fayçal El-Khoury Laval—Les Îles, QC

Mr. Chair, if it's possible, I would like to receive the motion in writing to understand it perfectly, and then we could discuss it.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal

Okay.

I'm going to suspend the meeting for a few minutes so we can solve this issue here.

We're suspended.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Madam Clerk has already circulated the motion, which you should have received on your P9 account. It's pretty clear.

Mr. Chong, is it clear now?

Can we take a vote on this now?

Michael Chong Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
Conservative

Mr. Chair, with respect to Madam Kwan, I don't support the motion because I don't think going in camera should require unanimous consent. I think if it's the will of the majority of the committee to go in camera, to adjourn or to do anything, the committee should so proceed. I don't think we should subject it to unanimous consent.

There are other tools available for members who have the minority of views on this committee other than requiring unanimity.

Thanks.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you.

Before I go to a vote I will give Madam Kwan the last opportunity, if she wants, to say something. Otherwise, I will call the vote.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I'm ready for the vote.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you.

Do you wish to have a recorded vote?

Madam Clerk, please call the roll.

(Motion negatived: nays 10; yeas 1)

I will now give the floor to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

8:10 p.m.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

I call the meeting back to order.

Could you please confirm if all members received the text of the motion?

A voice

Yes.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Madam Kwan, did you get it?

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Yes. I just got it. I'm looking at it now.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

I will open the floor for discussion on this one.

Go ahead, Madam Zahid, and then Mr. Sidhu.

Salma Zahid Scarborough Centre, ON
Liberal

Thank you, Chair.

I agree with that. I would also agree with Ms. Damoff's suggestion of adding more organizations to this motion. It would be right to add more organizations and not restrict ourselves to the ones that are mentioned in the motion.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Go ahead, Parliamentary Secretary Sidhu.

Maninder Sidhu Brampton East, ON
Liberal

It's a great motion presented by my colleague. Canada was one of the top 10 donors to Afghanistan before the turn of events. There are a lot of organizations that we need to hear from about the important work that they were doing in Afghanistan, from supporting women and girls to our food program.

I like the wording change suggestion of “and other organizations”. I'm just worried that.... I really want to get viewpoints from different organizations into what the situation on the ground is—because these organizations have direct ties—and how we can assist in humanitarian efforts. I understand Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe's urgency on this one.

Instead of three meetings as you suggested, five meetings would be ample time. We should also set a date for when these witnesses should be submitted so that we can get to work. I don't know what date is the will of the committee for when we can submit these witnesses to the committee.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

The next speakers are Madam Kwan and Madam Damoff, and then I'll come to you.

Michael Chong Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
Conservative

On a point of order, are we on the amendment now? If so, what is the amendment on the floor?

Are we on the main motion?

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

We are on the main motion with a friendly amendment.

Michael Chong Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
Conservative

What is the amendment?

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Madam Damoff, do you want to repeat that?

Pam Damoff Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Liberal

Originally, I said “other organizations”, but while we were suspended, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe pointed out to me that it already says “and NGOs working in Afghanistan”, so I don't think that particular wording is needed.

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe is going to amend his own motion to a certain number of meetings. Can he do that? If not, I would amend it to five meetings.

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Bloc

I think you should do that.

Pam Damoff Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Liberal

If I amend your motion, we're going to debate the number of meetings.

AS SPOKEN

8:15 p.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Bloc

Yes.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe cannot amend his motion. You have to bring forward an amendment. We can have a discussion on the amendment first.

Pam Damoff Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Liberal

I was going to amend it to five meetings, but a little birdie told me there might be consensus for four meetings, so I would amend it to be four meetings.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Can you read it again, please?

Pam Damoff Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Liberal

I would change the word “three” to “four” in relation to the meetings.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Is there any discussion?

Michael Chong Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
Conservative

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for clarifying that.

We're on the amendment to amend the motion to four meetings. I support that, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you, Mr. Chong.

Madam Kwan.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I support that amendment. I support the motion, but I'd like to do a subamendment, if I may.

Of urgency is the need to look at immigration measures to bring Afghan refugees and their families here to Canada, particularly those who served Canada.

I'd like to propose a subamendment to add the words “immigration measures” after the words “humanitarian assistance”. It would then be that, pursuant to the order of the House adopted on December 8, 2021, the committee assess the humanitarian assistance measures and immigration measures to be put in place by Canada to bring relief to the Afghan people; that the committee invite representatives of the World Food Programme, groups of veterans involved in the repatriation of Afghan interpreters and NGOs working in Afghanistan and family members; to do so, that the committee hold....

I would further amend then—

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Madam Kwan, this can't be amended because it is altogether a separate motion as per my discussion with the clerk.

I would focus the discussion now on the friendly amendment by Parliamentary Secretary Damoff and then I'll come back if you want to propose your motion again.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Okay, we can't do that. I thought we could do a subamendment.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

No, it's not an amendment to the number of meetings. It's altogether a different motion. You could move it as an amendment.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

That's fine.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

We are just working on the number of meetings. Then we can come back to your motion once that is finalized.

Is there any discussion on the number of meetings? If there is no discussion, I'll take a vote on that motion as amended.

Pam Damoff Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Liberal

Is it just the amendment?

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Yes.

(Amendment agreed to)

Now we can go back to Madam Kwan.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Now I'll move another amendment to the amended motion.

I'll go back to what I was saying. I think it is important to also look at immigration measures as an urgent matter in addition to the humanitarian assistance measures. I'd like to propose an amendment to add “immigration measures” after the words “humanitarian assistance measures”.

It would read that, pursuant to the order of the House adopted on December 8, 2021, the committee assess the humanitarian assistance measures and immigration measures to be put in place by Canada to bring relief to the Afghan people; that the committee invite representatives of the World Food Programme, groups of veterans involved in the repatriation of Afghan interpreters, and NGOs working in Afghanistan, and family members; to do so, that the committee hold a minimum of.... I'd like to amend the amended number of meetings from four to eight.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, you wanted to speak on this.

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Bloc

Yes.

I understand the spirit of the amendment proposed here, but I think the motion, as amended, already provides for four meetings and focuses on the humanitarian crisis. In fact, that's the spirit of the motion that was passed in the House to create this committee: to focus on the humanitarian crisis. So I think we have already agreed to four meetings on the humanitarian crisis and everything that's already written down. As far as the immigration issue and everything else, I think that will be studied in later meetings. It will be the subject of another motion as a result of the meetings that we'll have under the motion that I introduced and that was amended by Ms. Damoff.

So, I'm opposed to that, so that we don't complicate things and get lost in it all.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Madam Kwan, it is my understanding that you have to withdraw this motion unanimously, and then you can bring it back with unanimous....

Madam Kwan, the floor is yours.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

In an effort to be collaborative, I would like to withdraw my amendment. I will move that as a separate motion. Maybe that would simplify things.

(Amendment withdrawn)

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you.

Madam Zahid, you had your hand up.

Salma Zahid Scarborough Centre, ON
Liberal

Thank you, Chair. I had just wanted to add to what Ms. Kwan proposed, but now—

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

It's not on the floor right now.

Salma Zahid Scarborough Centre, ON
Liberal

Yes.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Okay.

Madam Damoff, go ahead, please.

AS SPOKEN

8:20 p.m.

Liberal

Pam Damoff Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Liberal

Through you, Chair, does the mover of the motion want to add a date by which the witnesses' names need to be submitted to the clerk? I'll leave it to his judgment.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, do you have anything to add before we take a vote?

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Bloc

I did not hear the interpretation of the end of the sentence, which seemed to be really important.

Could you repeat it, please?

Pam Damoff Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Liberal

It's about whether we should add a date for the witnesses.

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Bloc

Yes, okay.

To be realistic, we would first have to know when the committee is going to meet for the first time so that we can determine a deadline. I don't think we have decided that yet. I think it should be a week before the first meeting of the committee. That's sort of how it usually works.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you.

I think it's very clear, Madam Damoff.

I don't see any other member who wants to speak, so I would like to take the vote on the motion as amended.

(Motion as amended agreed to)

Thank you.

Madam Kwan, before I go to you, can I just quickly check with the honourable Mr. Chong to see if he has something to say on the same motion that got passed?

Mr. Chong.

Michael Chong Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
Conservative

No, I had another point to make after—

AS SPOKEN

8:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

After Madam Kwan...? Okay.

I will give the floor to Madam Kwan on her motion.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to move a new motion. It really mimics the wording of this last one that we just voted on. The motion would read as follows:

That, pursuant to the order of the House adopted on December 8, 2021, the committee assess the immigration measures to be put in place by Canada to bring relief to the Afghan people; that the Committee invite groups of veterans involved in the repatriation of Afghan interpreters and NGOs working in Afghanistan and family members; to do so, that the Committee hold a minimum of four meetings.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you, Madam Kwan.

I would like to ask you, just as a friendly thing, if you would like to distribute this motion and bring it to the next meeting, or if you—

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

No. I'd like for us to debate this motion and vote on it today.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Okay. Thank you.

I will go to Madam Zahid and then Mr. Sidhu.

Salma Zahid Scarborough Centre, ON
Liberal

Can we have the motion in both languages? Perhaps the clerk can email it to us. If Ms. Kwan has the motion written in both languages, perhaps it can be distributed to all the members so that we can have a look.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Honourable Mr. Chong, I have Mr. Sidhu before you, but I would skip this and give you an opportunity to speak.

↓

Michael Chong Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
Conservative

While the motion's being distributed, I'm a little concerned about adopting this motion, not so much because of the substance of it but rather because we just adopted a motion setting aside four meetings for the committee to call witnesses—that will take two weeks—and then, if we adopt this motion, that will take another two weeks. It will be four weeks before we're able to hear from departmental officials and ministers. I think that we should be hearing from ministers and departmental officials earlier than that.

I point to the terms of the order from the House. In paragraph (k), it says clearly that a whole range of ministers and other senior officials are to be invited to appear, so I think it's really important that you, Mr. Chair, ensure that the clerk invite those witnesses and that those witnesses appear in front of this committee. They're not witnesses, technically, but those ministers should be invited to appear in front of the committee before too long.

Obviously, ministers have busy schedules, and they may not be able to make an appearance in the first two weeks or so that the committee begins its proceedings at the end of January, but I certainly expect that they would appear in front of this committee by mid to late February. In that context, I'm a little concerned about the motion in that we might be pushing these appearances off until March or even April, which, in my view, is far too late, considering that this committee is to report back to the House of Commons by the end of May or early June.

If we are to adopt Madam Kwan's motion, I would hope that you, Mr. Chair, would ensure that the committee invite those individuals in paragraph (k) before too long, so that we don't have to wait until March before we hear from ministers and other departmental officials.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you.

I will go to Mr. Sidhu and then Madam Kwan.

Maninder Sidhu Brampton East, ON
Liberal

My colleague, Ms. Zahid, already made my point, so I'm okay.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you.

Madam Kwan, do you want to say the final words? It's going to be 8:30, so if you want to get this motion finalized, I would like you to make the final remarks. Then we can take a vote on this one.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I just want to be clear. This motion is not meant to sidestep or to usurp the opportunity to invite ministers and officials to this committee. I guess maybe this committee operates a little bit differently than the other committees that I normally sit on, because we would move a bunch of things and then we would have a subcommittee to organize the dates we can bring witnesses forward, and so on and so forth.

This is not meant to sidestep that. I do think, though, that we should hear from officials and ministers, absolutely. The urgency of the situation, in my mind and for New Democrats, is that, yes, we need to get humanitarian aid to the people in Afghanistan, but we also need to bring people to safety. Those two things are of the utmost urgency in my mind. That's the reason I moved my motion. I want to make sure that this committee looks into immigration measures in order to bring people to safety.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

I just want to make sure that every member realizes that there's only one meeting a week. There are not two meetings a week as is usual. We don't have much time, so, Mr. Chong, I agree with you. I think we have to bring in all those witnesses, but if we keep on adding, we're not going to get anywhere.

Do you support this motion now or do you want...?

Michael Chong Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
Conservative

I'm prepared to support it under the understanding—even in light of the one meeting a week—that ministers and departmental officials will be invited to appear, not after these witnesses concerning humanitarian assistance and concerning immigration measures are invited to appear, but some time during those other scheduled periods.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Do you want to amend the motion, then?

Michael Chong Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
Conservative

No, I don't, because the House motion is the House motion.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

A House motion takes precedence.

Michael Chong Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
Conservative

I'm asking you as chair to give us assurances that if this current motion is adopted, that motion, along with the previous motion adopted, doesn't mean that we're not inviting ministers and departmental officials to appear at the very end of the eight meetings that we are holding on these two particular issues.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

I have Madam Zahid and then Madam Damoff.

Please go ahead.

Salma Zahid Scarborough Centre, ON
Liberal

Thank you, Chair.

I think we are already at 8:30 p.m. and we have decided. We have passed one motion and we will have four meetings on that, so maybe Ms. Kwan can bring that motion to the next meeting, because we need to look into the language also.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Sure.

Madam Damoff.

Liberal

Pam Damoff Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Liberal

I was just going to say that the motion actually says that the witnesses Mr. Chong mentioned would appear from time to time as the committee sees fit. I'm in complete agreement with the motion that we passed, and I think that's the motion the committee has passed at this point. Then we can work on a work plan moving forward. I too would like to see Ms. Kwan's motion in writing before I vote on it.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Madam Kwan, do you—

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

I've just sent the motion to the clerk.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

It's already 8:32 p.m.

I have Madam Damoff.

Pam Damoff Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Liberal

I would move that the committee adjourn debate on the motion.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

I will suspend the meeting for a few seconds here.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

I call the meeting back to order.

Madam Kwan, Madam Damoff has proposed a motion to adjourn the debate, and that is a non-debatable motion. I have to take a vote on that one.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Could we have a recorded vote, please?

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Bloc

A point of order, Mr. Chair.

Could you tell me again what we are voting on, please?

8:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Madam Damoff brought in a motion to adjourn the debate on that motion, so that's what we are voting on.

(Motion agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5)

The debate is adjourned. It is already 8:35. I would like to see if we can end the meeting right now.

The meeting is adjourned. Thank you.

Latest posts

CIMM#115: Pension Transferability and Access to Mandatory Provident Fund (MPF), and Delays in Permanent Residence and Visas for Hong Kongers Recent Reforms to the International Student Program

James McNamee, Director General, Family and Social Immigration Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
I would say that's generally the case. If the work permit they obtained was originally connected to the public policy, that's correct. I don't know if that's the situation in all cases. In some cases, applicants may have had an LMIA-based work permit to begin with.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC, NDP
That's right. However, under the special immigration measure, the LMIA is not required. I have a list of applicants in those circumstances. Their work permit renewal application was rejected. They were asked to submit an LMIA, which makes no sense. I want to flag that as a deep concern now emerging for people whose open work permits are being rejected as they wait for their permanent resident status. At this rate, given the immigration levels plan numbers and the processing delays happening, and with the number of applicants in place, you can imagine that it's going to take something like eight years to get through the backlog of people getting their PR status. This means that if they are trying to get their pension, they will not be able to do so for eight years, because they are required to provide proof of permanent residence.
I want to flag this as a major concern. I hope the department will take action to fix the error being applied to applicants whose open work permits are being rejected under this stream. Can I get a confirmation from officials that this will be undertaken?

James McNamee, Director General, Family and Social Immigration Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Yes, that issue has been raised with the department already, and we're looking into it to see what exactly happened in those situations.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC, NDP
Okay. Officials are aware of it, and yet it's still happening. I have cases coming to me that are happening. I'm about to prepare a giant pile of this stuff for the minister, so I hope the officials will fix that. The other thing related to the pension, of course, is lengthy delays for people to get their permanent status. Based on the immigration levels plan and the number of applicants in place, is it the officials' anticipation that it will take about eight years to get those applications processed?

James McNamee, Director General, Family and Social Immigration Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
We have looked at that possibility. Certainly, it will take longer than we had previously indicated to the committee. I would note that the first year of the levels plan is the fixed year. The years that follow, in this case, 2026 and 2027, are flexible. There are opportunities to adjust those numbers in the future, and that could affect that timeline. It's hard to say whether eight years will be the timeline, but it will be longer than had been originally predicted because the numbers have gone down.

CIMM#114: Recent Reforms to the International Student Program

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
Aside from looking at patterns of potential violators—the groups and organizations taking advantage of students with these fraudulent letters of acceptance—will you be including in the analysis what types of institutions are being utilized for these fraudulent letters? In other words, is it private institutions versus public institutions, colleges versus universities and so on? Will that be part of the analysis?

Bronwyn May, Director General, International Students Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
It's not always the case that a letter originates from an institution. We would need to look at various possible sources.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
Maybe I can reframe that.
Obviously, as these are fraudulent letters of acceptance, they wouldn't be issued by the institutions. However, regarding the list of institutions being used for the purpose of these fraudulent letters, I would be interested in obtaining information to determine what percentage are private institutions and public institutions, how many of them are colleges, how many of them are universities and so on. That will tell us very specific information that I think is important when trying to tackle fraudulent activities.

Bronwyn May, Director General, International Students Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
I completely agree. That's a very important line of analysis.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
I will make the further request to make sure you share this information with the committee. I'll argue that this information should not be kept secret. It should be public and transparent—shared with all Canadians—so that we're aware of what the landscape is and of how international students are being taken advantage of. With respect to that analysis, will there be information and data on what countries are being targeted?

Click to read the full discussion from the Committee meeting

CIMM#113: Pension Transferability and Access to Mandatory Provident Fund (MPF), and Delays in Permanent Residence and Visas for Hong Kongers

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
All right. Thank you.
Hence, we have this problem. You have the Canadian government, which created this lifeboat scheme for Hong Kongers who are fleeing persecution in Hong Kong as a result of the national security law. The government, in its wisdom or lack thereof, created this lifeboat scheme that only provides for temporary residence by way of a work permit or a study permit. Then these people have to go to the queue to make an application for permanent residence, and we know that there is a huge backlog and delay in processing.
In the beginning, there was swift action, but as time has passed, it's been lengthened by way of the delay, to the point where the former minister even made an announcement to further extend people's work permits and study permits for another three years. That is to say, a person could be here for six years—as long as six years—under this current scheme without getting permanent residence. This is because the minister anticipated that people would not be able to swiftly get their permanent resident status. That is the reality.
As a result of that, people are not able to provide proof of permanent residence, because the application is in process. To make it even worse, the government—the minister—just made an announcement about the levels plan, cutting levels to the tune of 105,000 permanent resident status applications.
You can imagine how long the wait-list is for Hong Kongers as they continue to wait. Now, these Hong Kongers have zero intention of returning to Hong Kong, because they know that they would be persecuted if they did. People know that. I think the Canadian government knows that.
This is my question, then, to you as the manager of their pension, which, because of this rule, they're unable to access: Would your organization be willing to write to the regulator to ask for consideration for these applicants who are in a prolonged period of waiting for permanent resident status, to ask that their declaration indicating that they do not intend to return to Hong Kong be accepted as proof that they intend to leave Hong Kong permanently so that they can access their pensions? Is that something that your organization would consider doing?

Maryscott Greenwood, Global Head, Government Relations, The Manufacturers Life Insurance Company
I think I understand the question.
The basic premise of your question has to do with the period of time it takes for the Government of Canada to determine and provide permanent residency or citizenship. It seems to me that this is a function of the Government of Canada, as opposed to a regulated entity. That's how I would answer that.

Laura Hewitt, Senior Vice-President and Head, Global Government Affairs and Public Policy, Sun Life Financial Services of Canada Inc.
Yes. I would say that it's not within our authority to change the criteria.
However, our numbers show that once that permanent residency does come through, we're able to process the applications and approve Canadian permanent residents.

AFGH#1: First meeting of Special Committee on Afghanistan

Click to read the full discussion from the Committee meeting

Latest posts

CIMM#115: Pension Transferability and Access to Mandatory Provident Fund (MPF), and Delays in Permanent Residence and Visas for Hong Kongers Recent Reforms to the International Student Program

CIMM#114: Recent Reforms to the International Student Program

Click to read the full discussion from the Committee meeting

CIMM#113: Pension Transferability and Access to Mandatory Provident Fund (MPF), and Delays in Permanent Residence and Visas for Hong Kongers

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