AFGH#3: Humanitarian Assistance for the Afghan people

Khalidha Nasiri, Executive Director, Afghan Youth Engagement and Development Initiative
The short answer is, absolutely. One of the members mentioned that a 10-year-old girl who was eligible to come under one of these programs died because her application was delayed. Last week, we heard of an unnamed brother of a Canadian embassy worker who was killed, presumably by the Taliban in Afghanistan, and whose application was delayed because of paperwork.
Absolutely, we think these measures would work.

Dr. Lauryn Oates, Executive Director, Canadian Women for Women in Afghanistan
Absolutely, we need to forge agreements with other governments. Again, this is something the U.S. has done. We have followed suit in so many U.S.-driven policies in Afghanistan that had bad outcomes for Afghans, so it would be good if we also emulated some that could have good outcomes.
I would emphasize that the danger is not in leaving Afghanistan; it's in staying in Afghanistan. That was tragically exemplified in the case of the girl in Kandahar who was killed while waiting to come to Canada.
We, as a small NGO, have been able to get eight families out on our own, without any assistance from the government. I can't say it was easy, but we did it, and many other organizations have done the same. If we had the government supporting us to do the same, we could do so much more. We could get people out.

Click to read the full discussion from the Committee meeting

Afghanistan Committee on Feb. 7th, 2022
Evidence of meeting #3 for Afghanistan in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session

7:15 p.m.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I just want to say thank you to all the witnesses for your presentations today, and in addition to that, for the ongoing work you do in the global community. There are many humanitarian crises and you've always been there. I very much appreciate that.

I'd like to first turn my question to Ms. Grantham to carry on with the issue around Canadian organizations' inability to provide aid on the ground. You're not the only one. Last week we heard from other organizations as well. This has been going on since August 2021, as you have indicated. When was the last time you had a substantive discussion about this with the government? When did you bring this to their attention? What was their response?

Barbara Grantham
President and Chief Executive Officer, CARE Canada

We are in contact with the government every week, frankly, trying to find various approaches to resolve the issue. We have been since probably October or November. We're in very regular touch with colleagues across a number of departments. It's chiefly Global Affairs Canada because that's the funder and the holder of the contracts, obviously, in the first place. I know they're working with other departments to try to find a solution to this.

I do believe there is clear understanding and acknowledgement of the issue and the imperative of the issue. The unfortunate thing is that the sense of urgency that we feel is not aligned with the timeline the government seems to feel is possible. We're running against a clock of weather, famine and malnutrition.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you very much.

I fully understand the urgency of the situation. Children are starving now, and they need the aid now. While we talk about it, it does not help them at this point. Other jurisdictions have managed to find a workaround or an exemption, but Canada still has not been able to do so. That's mystifying to me.

I'm gathering from you that the urgency is utmost and that your recommendation to the government is to act forthwith to provide either an exemption or a workaround similar to that of other jurisdictions. Am I correct?

Barbara Grantham
President and Chief Executive Officer, CARE Canada

That's correct.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you.

With the other two organizations, your stature may be a little bit different, but you're seeing that on the ground as well, with the NGOs. Could I just quickly ask both Mr. Fontaine and Mr. Nickerson if you would agree that the government needs to act forthwith to provide either an exemption or a workaround to Canadian organizations so that they can provide aid on the ground in Afghanistan now?

Mr. Fontaine, go ahead.

Manuel Fontaine
Director, Office of Emergency Programmes, United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF)

Anything that at the moment is an obstacle to providing the needed urgent humanitarian assistance needs to be looked at very carefully and worked on.

As you know, the Security Council has adopted a resolution bringing exemptions to the sanctions regime for the UN, but it is important that all countries absolutely move on that.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Mr. Nickerson, go ahead.

Dr. Jason Nickerson
Humanitarian Representative to Canada, Doctors Without Borders

Yes, we would agree. Obstacles need to be removed to ensure that humanitarian organizations are able to do their work and respond to needs on the ground.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you. I gather from your comments that it's not just for Afghanistan—obviously, we have to deal with that—but for other countries as well.

Mr. Nickerson, in terms of Doctors Without Borders, I'm sure on the ground you're working day and night to provide assistance and support to people who face persecution or who have been attacked because of persecution from the Taliban. Are you able to provide aid to them as well, particularly to those in hiding—women and girls who may be in hiding? How do they go about getting aid?

I will ask my colleague Ms. Flokstra to respond, please.

Martine Flokstra
Operations Manager, Doctors Without Borders

What we see is basically a steep increase in patients. Of course, as a consequence, a large part of the health system is not functioning and has collapsed. It is now somehow kept afloat, because that is what is currently happening with the humanitarian assistance and the humanitarian funding reaching the country. Systems are kept afloat, but they are still extremely fragile. As we have done for the past decades in our hospitals, we are treating patients who are also victims of violence. That can be domestic violence or other violence.

I would like to reiterate that there is a structural problem. The humanitarian assistance that's now given is so required, but it is very unclear what the future will bring. As we said, it's a band-aid for the current situation while the future is unknown. Humanitarian need is about the need of a person. It's a disease, and a disease does not have a political preference. I think that should be crucial in humanitarian assistance.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you very much. Time is up.

Ms. Grantham, I see that you have a hand raised. Do you want to say something in 10 or 15 seconds?

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Ms. Kwan, go ahead, please.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you very much.

I'd like to follow up with Ms. Grantham. I understand the idea is that we need legislative changes, but in light of the urgency of the situation, would a proposal such as...? If the government came to your organization, which is well established for many years in terms of your humanitarian aid work, and they offered a memorandum of agreement, a legal document, to exempt your organization and your aid workers from prosecution and to also exempt any approach to...potentially putting your organization in jeopardy in terms of your charitable status, would that suffice as a workaround, an idea such as that?

Somebody who's a lawyer, much brighter than me, can actually propose these ideas and come up with the documentation.

Barbara Grantham
President and Chief Executive Officer, CARE Canada

Well, I wouldn't say lawyers are necessarily brighter than you.

What I would say is that this is one of the options that we have been actively pursuing. If, in a real-time situation, we were presented with an option along those lines, and our legal counsel assured us as an organization that it removed the risk to a tolerable level for us, then we would respond very positively to that.

That's exactly the kind of scenario we are hoping for.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you so much. It's about finding a workaround and also being innovative, because if we think legislation is the only way to go, we will never get there and people will continue to die.

Ms. Grantham, in the on-the-ground organizations, the women's and girls' organizations on the ground.... Many of them, of course, are in hiding, fearing for their life. I would expect that some of them would be looking to see how they can leave Afghanistan. The stance right now is that the Canadian government does not allow refugee status for those in Afghanistan. They have to get to a third country.

Are you hearing those concerns on the ground with people who are fearing for their lives?

Barbara Grantham
President and Chief Executive Officer, CARE Canada

I should be very clear. Our current programs are paused, so we are not in a position to hear that level of detailed information in a day-to-day way. I think it is fair to say that for women in Afghanistan, their full participation in civic life is very limited and highly variable across the country.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you, Ms. Kwan. Your time is up now.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Mr. Chair, if I could just interject, on that question, I wonder if the witnesses can send in their written response.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Sure.

Thank you, Ms. Kwan.

On behalf of all members of Parliament, I would like to thank all the witnesses for their participation in this important work. If you have anything to add, you are welcome to submit it to the committee clerk. We would really appreciate it.

I'm going to suspend the meeting for a few minutes so we can do the sound check for the next panel.

Thank you.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Now we'll go to Ms. Kwan for six minutes, please.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of the witnesses for their presentations and, of course, for their ongoing work in providing assistance to those who are faced with a humanitarian crisis.

My first question is for Ms. Nasiri and Dr. Oates. It centres around the comments you made about the need to ensure that Canadian organizations that are in Afghanistan right now would be able to provide assistance, whether that be aid to children who are dying of malnutrition or to women's and girls' local organizations on the ground. They're unable to do so because of Canada's anti-terrorism laws.

In the previous panel, I asked the organizations if they would support this. If a legal agreement were to be entered into by the Canadian government and those organizations that are long-established here in providing humanitarian aid, would that be sufficient for them to provide humanitarian aid in Afghanistan? That is to say, the Canadian government would provide some sort of measure outside of legislative changes to ensure that staff would not be prosecuted and the organization would not face repercussions in relation to any potential violation of the Criminal Code.

Ms. Nasiri can answer first, and then I'll go to Dr. Oates.

Khalidha Nasiri
Executive Director, Afghan Youth Engagement and Development Initiative

As I mentioned, we've heard concerning reports directly from smaller humanitarian charities working on the ground that they're receiving resistance from banks here domestically and having problems in Afghanistan with getting aid and goods there because of this law.

We think an MOU would be an acceptable temporary measure, although we need to make sure that some explicit guidance is publicly provided as well, so that banks, for example, can be reassured that it wouldn't count as criminal activity and smaller charity groups that have been operating for a long time would not be excluded from such measures.

I would echo that. There are models we can look to, like the exemptions or licences that are issued to organizations by the U.S. government to be able to continue their work on the ground.

We make our own agreements with the vendors and partners we work with to ensure that no funds of ours end up in the hands of the Taliban. That would be a very important measure.

In addition, I'd echo that the challenges from the Canadian banks are very significant in terms of being able to move funds. If that could be alleviated at all, it would go a long way as well.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

I'd like to turn to another question, related to the situation on the ground. We've heard from presenters about refugee or immigration measures, how it's almost impossible—in fact, in many cases it is impossible—for people who are still in Afghanistan to get to safety. The suggestion was to ensure that the Canadian government brings in special immigration measures, such as issuing temporary residence permits to those who need to get to safety immediately, as well as waiving the requirements for documentation.

I'd like to hear from the organizations about this. Is this something you would call on the government to enact immediately?

Go ahead, Ms. Nasiri.

Khalidha Nasiri
Executive Director, Afghan Youth Engagement and Development Initiative

The short answer is, absolutely. One of the members mentioned that a 10-year-old girl who was eligible to come under one of these programs died because her application was delayed. Last week, we heard of an unnamed brother of a Canadian embassy worker who was killed, presumably by the Taliban in Afghanistan, and whose application was delayed because of paperwork.

Absolutely, we think these measures would work.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you.

I'd like to go to Dr. Oates and then to Mr. Mirzad on the same question, please.

Dr. Lauryn Oates
Executive Director, Canadian Women for Women in Afghanistan

Absolutely, we need to forge agreements with other governments. Again, this is something the U.S. has done. We have followed suit in so many U.S.-driven policies in Afghanistan that had bad outcomes for Afghans, so it would be good if we also emulated some that could have good outcomes.

I would emphasize that the danger is not in leaving Afghanistan; it's in staying in Afghanistan. That was tragically exemplified in the case of the girl in Kandahar who was killed while waiting to come to Canada.

We, as a small NGO, have been able to get eight families out on our own, without any assistance from the government. I can't say it was easy, but we did it, and many other organizations have done the same. If we had the government supporting us to do the same, we could do so much more. We could get people out.

Ali Mirzad
Senior Government Affairs and Relations Advisor, Canadian Hazara Humanitarian Services

Absolutely. I would echo what our friends Ms. Nasiri and Ms. Oates said. There needs to be a dialogue. I said earlier that the presence of Canada on the ground in Pakistan is, in its way, one form of dialogue that Canada must have with Pakistan. In a similar fashion, Canada can have a dialogue not directly with the Taliban but through an intermediary, such as Qatar or the UAE, to forge an alliance that can help people get out, like the programs the Americans have established.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you very much, Ms. Kwan.

I will go to Mr. Ruff and then Ms. Damoff, for four minutes each. I'll then come back to Monsieur Brunelle-Duceppe and Ms. Kwan, for two minutes each.

Mr. Ruff, you have four minutes, please.

8:40 p.m.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
NDP

Ms. Kwan, you have two minutes, please.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you very much.

Actually, I just want to build on that. The requirement of a UNHCR refugee determination is prohibitive. People cannot get access to that. Should the government waive this requirement?

I will go to Ms. Oates, Mr. Maley and then Ms. Nasiri.

Dr. Lauryn Oates
Executive Director, Canadian Women for Women in Afghanistan

Yes, it needs to be waived.

I have heard first-hand accounts of people who have been attempting to get that status for months. They've reached a safe country—or a relatively safe country, in any case—like Pakistan and they can't get that. Their visas will run out and they'll be back. That's very important.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you.

Let's have Mr. Maley, quickly, and then Ms. Nasiri.

Dr. William Maley
Emeritus Professor, Australian National University, and Representative, Canadian Hazara Humanitarian Services

I totally agree with that.

It becomes a theatre of the absurd if Canadian or Australian resettlement, or whatever, is hostage to the bureaucratic efficiency and the resource endowments that some third agency may or may not manifest. I think that should be replaced with a much more efficient system.

AS SPOKEN

8:45 p.m.

NDP

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC

Ms. Nasiri, go ahead.

Khalidha Nasiri
Executive Director, Afghan Youth Engagement and Development Initiative

I agree with my two colleagues, absolutely. It would be very impactful if instituted immediately. The immigration minister is certainly empowered by legislation—I believe it's section 25.2 of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act—to make exemptions and essentially fast-track people at high risk based on his judgment.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

We've done it before, as you presented. We can do it again. It is certainly required for this situation.

Mr. Mirzad, you raised the issue of the government in private sponsorships. The limitations related to the group of five.... It is impossible, because people have to get refugee determination to even apply. Should the government open up the privately sponsored refugees for all the streams and waive the requirement?

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Ms. Kwan, your time is up. I appreciate that, but I have to be very strict on this one.

On behalf of all members of Parliament, I would like to thank the witnesses for the excellent input they provided. If you want to submit anything in writing, you are welcome to do so.

Also, on behalf of all the members, I would like to thank the clerk, the analysts, the interpreters and of course the technical team for staying overtime for 15 minutes to help us.

Thank you. All the best.

The meeting is adjourned.

AFGH#3: Humanitarian Assistance for the Afghan people

Click to read the full discussion from the Committee meeting

https://openparliament.ca/committees/afghanistan-s/44-1/3/jenny-kwan-1/

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