AFGN#11: Humanitarian Assistance for the Afghan people

Thank you very much, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

Now we'll go to Madam Kwan for six minutes.

Please go ahead.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the minister and her officials for coming to our committee.

Has your office received any legal briefings from Justice on how Canada can ensure those doing humanitarian aid work are not going to be deemed to be in violation of Canada's anti-terrorism law?

You're essentially asking questions similar to what Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe asked me in French, Jenny.

My answer would be similar to what I said in French, which is that if it's the position of the NDP, in the context of this committee, regarding the fact that there should be an amendment to the Criminal Code, which doesn't have an impact on—

Thank you, Madam Minister—

I'm sorry. I just want to finish my answer—

I'm sorry. I'm going to interrupt.

Mr. Chair, I'm just going to interrupt for a minute. I don't need to get the answer in English, because I heard it through translation, Mr. Chair.

No, Mr. Chair. I will finish my answer.

Could I take a moment, please?

It is my time, so I would like to actually ask questions—

I will just finish my answer—

Please—

Yes, please go ahead, Mr. Chair.

I'm sorry. From now on, I would ask all honourable members to go through the chair so that I can control this better. I would love to give time for the minister to respond. If a member has to interrupt, then they should come through the chair and let me be respectful of the time.

Please go ahead, Madam Kwan.

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I just want to get clarification with you, then. I asked the minister a question which was basically a yes-or-no answer. I don't need the minister to tell me in English what she said in French, because we have fantastic interpreters who are doing that job. I am wearing my headpiece and I can understand the answer.

I'm actually seeking an answer, not a repeat of the answer. If I could direct the minister to answer the question, Mr. Chair—

I have a point of order, Chair.

Go ahead, please.

Chair, I think the issue here is just that the member asked a similar question and the minister was giving a similar response. I think that if the member didn't want a similar answer she shouldn't have asked a similar question. I also think it's important to be cordial. Literally three seconds into the minister's response, the minister was interrupted. I just don't think that's respectful.

Chair, I just think that the minister should be given at least a few moments to respond to the question, basically, before the member jumps in, whether it's through you or otherwise.

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair, that really wasn't a point of order, though.

I would appreciate actually an answer. It was a different question.

Madam Kwan, let's stop it here.

Madam Kwan, if you could give me a few seconds now, as you know, I have always been respectful. I've never intervened when you've had direct conversation, but for the sake of argument, let's talk through the chair, and then I will make a decision.

Even if the minister takes a few seconds longer, I will make sure, Madam Kwan, that your time has been compensated. I have stopped the watch, okay?

Okay.

Thank you very much.

Thank you to the minister as well for understanding.

Madam Kwan, please go ahead.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm just looking for a yes-or-no answer from the minister, but not an explanation and a repeat of what she already said.

Thank you.

Minister, do you want to respond?

My answer is, if it's the NDP position that the Taliban regime should not be recognized in the Criminal Code, or if it's the position of the NDP that the Taliban regime should be recognized by the...mentioned in the Criminal Code, but at the same time that there's a mechanism for humanitarian aid, I would love to know it, so I'm looking forward to working with her.

Thank you.

Thank you, Minister.

Go ahead, Madame Kwan.

I would urge the minister to read Hansard, then, because I'm on record with respect to what my suggestion is in dealing with this issue.

Can the minister advise if she or her office have been offered any assistance by allied countries with biometric collection?

Thank you, Jenny. That's a really good question, because I've reached out to many countries to find ways to be able to have safe passage in Afghanistan, including the EU directly and Germany. Also, obviously, we had conversations with Qatar, UAE and Pakistan.

The issue is definitely the question of biometrics and making sure that the security of the biometric facility is ensured.

My question was: Has the minister or the minister's office been offered this assistance by allied countries, yes or no?

We've reached out proactively, and I have reached out proactively.

Is the minister saying that she and her office have not been offered assistance by allied countries for biometrics collection?

I've had many conversations with many countries, including Pakistan, UAE and Qatar on this, like I mentioned. Our goal has always been to make sure that biometrics could be done and could be done safely, and we wanted to work particularly with NATO allies on this issue.

It's been brought to my attention that the ministry, GAC, has been offered by allied countries to do biometric collections for Canada in their offices or in mobile offices. That was back in January, to my understanding, and yet, to date, this has not been taken up. Why not?

We have clear security concerns that, because of the fact that there are terrorism groups in Afghanistan and in the region, any form of presence can be targeted, and therefore there's a security issue.

That's been the challenge of the Government of Canada, Jenny. It's how we can make sure that there are biometrics and people brought to Canada, and meanwhile, not create a security issue for Canadian diplomats on site.

It sounds to me that the minister is saying that allied countries are not capable of doing biometrics, which is concerning.

A group of 35 lawyers, Shajjan & Associates, was hired by the ministry of Justice to represent the embassy and many Canadian departments with interests in Afghanistan. They worked for the embassy for nine years. They all applied for the special immigration measures. GAC gave them a verbal confirmation that they would be provided an invitation to apply, but, to date, no invitation has arrived.

I wrote to the minister about this, both this minister and the minister of Immigration.

Does the minister keep track of the cases referred to IRCC for processing?

You have thirty-five seconds.

Definitely. I work with my colleague Sean Fraser. Obviously I've seen your emails, and I've answered all of them with great pleasure. At the same time, it is important for us to follow up, and this is definitely something that IRCC is in charge of.

I raised that with the Minister of Immigration, who seemed surprised and said, “Oh, I haven't heard that”. Of course, I have a list of these individuals who have applied, and it has gone nowhere. I did receive responses from the minister acknowledging receipt of these letters, but no real response.

It would be great for the officials to table any documentation to the committee to show that they have, in fact, followed up with IRCC, what the expectations are, and what will happen with GAC with these individuals who are being left behind.

Thank you very much, Madame Kwan.

We will do so. Thank you.

7:25 p.m.

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, thank you very much. Your time is up.

We will go to the last honourable member for two and a half minutes.

Madam Kwan, please go ahead.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to just follow up on the last question.

Could the minister advise what action she will take to ensure that GAC will refer people who have applied to Canada but still not heard from IRCC...that they will receive an invitation and in fact receive the information before the quota, the number of the allocations, runs out?

 

Mélanie Joly Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC
Liberal

We will make sure to follow up with IRCC. GAC has definitely been the bridge between the people who have applied at the beginning...and then they're processed through IRCC. We know that a lot can be done and must be done, and that's what we'll do.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

I'm very concerned. With each passing day, people's lives are at risk, because they're in hiding.

I know that some applications were submitted eight months ago. They have been GAC approved, in terms of the referral, and are sitting on IRCC's desk somewhere collecting dust. I hope the minister will motivate IRCC to get the job done. Otherwise, it makes you look bad, which is not I think what they want to do.

On a different question, with respect to Pakistan—because part of the issue is Pakistan not moving forward with the recognition of documentation—could the minister advise what work she has been engaged in with Pakistan to ensure that the accepted documentation, such as single-journey travel documents from Canada...so people can exit Afghanistan?

 

Mélanie Joly Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC
Liberal

Well, I think you've heard it from my colleague, Sean Fraser, who wants to make sure that biometrics are made. This is clearly an issue, because we obviously want to make sure that Canada's security is protected.

To go back to your former question, because I didn't fully answer, you asked me whether we received offers of biometric services from allied countries. I want to let you that's not the case.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

That's interesting.

With respect to allied countries, and for Pakistan to recognize our documentation, will the minister ask allied countries if they will collect biometrics on behalf of Canada, or operate on the ground, seeing as they have boots on the ground to do mobile offices?

 

Mélanie Joly Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC
Liberal

That's exactly what I was trying to do with the EU and Germany. We thought that was something that could be done. At the same time, we're still in conversations. I hope this will continue to move in the right direction. I must say that the security situation is such that it is difficult for us, and it is difficult for the EU and Germany. I won't talk for them and put words in their mouths, but this is a collective problem. It's not only a Canadian issue.

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you very much, Madam Kwan. Your time is up.

Now, on behalf of the committee members I want to thank the honourable minister for her appearance. Ms. Joly, thank you. The very best to you.

Now we will suspend for a few minutes to allow the minister to intermingle with the members and leave. We'll continue with the officials shortly. Thank you.

 

7:55 p.m.

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

I will now go to Madame Kwan for six minutes.

Please go ahead.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
Liberal

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the officials.

In Mr. Thoppil's last appearance at this committee, he indicated that things were going well with Pakistan, in terms of bringing Afghans to safety. Then things changed and evolved, but were still kind of going.

Can officials clarify for me whether Pakistan is now refusing to recognize Canada's documents, including the single journey travel document or letter of acceptance from IRCC and G number, which was something they had done previously?

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Go ahead, Mr. Thoppil.

 

Paul Thoppil
Assistant Deputy Minister, Asia Pacific, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Mr. Chair, we have no defined sustainable protocol with Pakistan at this juncture. It's ad hoc-ish.

What we're trying to do, through our head of mission in Islamabad, is engage constantly with the Government of Pakistan to see whether they would re-engage in a sustainable protocol at the Torkham border gate and allow single travel documents to be accepted. This is a concern for Pakistan right now, in part because they had, as you know, millions of refugees already, pre-fall. They stopped in November, as the minister said, because they are worried about continuing to be a draw for those who have received documentation from Canada or like-minded countries...for more Afghans to come over their border.

That's why, from Pakistan's perspective, it's a challenging situation—responding to many countries' requests to accept documentation from Afghans who would like to cross the border.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

When was the last discussion GAC had with Pakistan on this issue?

 

Paul Thoppil
Assistant Deputy Minister, Asia Pacific, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

 

As the minister said, the deputy minister went to have high-level bilateral consultations in the late fall, whereby these issues were put forward. I can't tell you, at this juncture, when our high commissioner last had an interaction with the Pakistan government, but Global Affairs headquarters has charged her to make these types of issues the top priority.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

If officials could table documentation with this committee advising us on when that last conversation took place and when they expect the next conversation will continue the discussion, that would be much appreciated. Just give us a sort of progress update, if you will, since November, because I hope that work has been done since November. It sounds as if it has, but getting that update would be much appreciated.

 

Paul Thoppil
Assistant Deputy Minister, Asia Pacific, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

 

We would be pleased to do so.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you so much.

Similarly, on the question of biometrics and allied countries, the minister indicated that there's been ongoing discussion with respect to that.

When was the last discussion with allied countries regarding them assisting Canada in collecting biometrics in Afghanistan or operating mobile offices?

 

Cindy Termorshuizen
Associate Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

 

Perhaps I'll start and then pass the floor to Paul.

I think it's fair to say that we probably have conversations about biometrics on a weekly basis. As the minister said, the issue of biometric collection, particularly inside Afghanistan, is a real challenge. We can collect biometrics in other countries, which we're doing in Pakistan, but the inside-Afghanistan piece is really difficult. None of our allies has cracked this nut because, as the minister said, the ability to collect biometrics in Afghanistan securely, given the security situation some of your colleagues have noted, is challenging.

Let me pass the floor to Paul.

 

Paul Thoppil
Assistant Deputy Minister, Asia Pacific, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

 

Mr. Chair, reach-outs were happening with the EU and Germany in January or February, through what are almost weekly conversations with like-minded...to take a pulse on what is happening on the ground and where there may perhaps be movements others have discovered. As my colleagues have suggested, we're trying to find a way forward because we all desire.... Whether it's Canada's 40,000 commitment or certain countries that still have former locally engaged staff trapped in the country, we're all trying to find a way forward to extract them from what are very challenging circumstances.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Has utilizing ex-military to collect biometrics been considered?

 

Paul Thoppil
Assistant Deputy Minister, Asia Pacific, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

 

Mr. Chair, I think the issue becomes what is Canada's duty of care to any party, whether it's ex-military or not, based on the security situation on the ground. That still has to be triaged. Whether it's Government of Canada personnel or it's through some sort of arrangement, that legal obligation of duty of care still rests on the Government of Canada, from a legal exposure perspective. That is one issue.

The other issue is, how do you move forward in a way that also respects the Criminal Code? There needs to be a legal review of that undertaking, I think, hypothetically.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Just raising—

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you very much, Madam Kwan. Your time is up.

We'll go to the second round now, and we'll start with Mr. Ruff for five minutes.

Please go ahead.

 

8:15 p.m.

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

We'll go to Madam Kwan for two and a half minutes.

Please go ahead.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you.

I'd like to clarify with the officials what documentation I'm looking for. Specifically, I'd like to get the officials to table how many GAC-referred people were submitted to IRCC and how many of those have been issued a G number that they are aware of, and how many have arrived in Canada.

As well, I'd like the officials to submit to us how many do not have a G number among those people referred to IRCC—among the GAC referrals—and when the first and last referral were made to IRCC from GAC.

Also, could the officials advise us as to whether or not women athletes have applied to GAC for referrals, and if GAC has made any of those referrals to IRCC?

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you.

I will go to the associate deputy minister. Please respond.

 

Cindy Termorshuizen
Associate Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

I'll pass the floor to Mr. Thoppil, if you don't mind, Mr. Chair.

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Sure. No problem.

Mr. Thoppil, go ahead please.

 

Paul Thoppil
Assistant Deputy Minister, Asia Pacific, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

 

Mr. Chair, we would be very pleased to provide answers to all of those questions.

Just based on data that I have in front of me, just to be helpful to respond to the member's questions, I would note that it's a fluid situation and that the numbers of Afghans coming here are always increasing nicely—perhaps not as fast as we would all like, for sure. But recently, we had—

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

I'm sorry, I don't mean to interrupt you. I'm just running out of time and I've got one more question. If I could get that information submitted to the committee through the clerk, that would be great, as we could then share it with everyone.

I would like to ask very quickly if, in the ongoing work on this file, GAC is still accepting referrals at this point in time, and would you support having IRCC expand the referral groups to, let's say, Amnesty International?

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

You have 13 seconds.

 

Paul Thoppil
Assistant Deputy Minister, Asia Pacific, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

 

Mr. Chair, as I may have said, we are still receiving inquiries every day through our GAC intake box. But the answer to the question is really the prerogative of the minister of IRCC, and it's that minister who really should be here to respond to that question.

https://openparliament.ca/committees/afghanistan-s/44-1/11/the-chair-8/