AFGN#8: Humanitarian Assistance for the Afghan people

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC, NDP
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Just to add to that, I've also written to the minister on the same issue. I've yet to receive a response. I think it was back in February when the letter was sent. I'd be happy to offer suggestions as to what the minister and government can do to address this urgent situation. I'd like to ask the minister a question. Witnesses mentioned that there were flights that left in the evacuation process that were half empty. I wonder if the minister can provide this committee with information on the number of flights that left in the evacuation where seats were left unfilled and how many of those seats were on each of those flights. Can we have that information tabled to the committee, please?

Harjit S. Sajjan Vancouver South, BC, Liberal
Mr. Chair, one thing I can say is that, in times of crisis like this, a lot of the decision-making is to make sure that the people on the ground have the appropriate delegation authority to make those decisions. I also just want to take the opportunity to thank the Canadian Armed Forces for the tremendous work they did in extraordinarily difficult circumstances. I'm not the minister of defence now, and those requests will have to flow through Minister Anand.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC, NDP
I'm trying to get the stats on how many flights were evacuated, how many seats were on those flights and how many of those seats were filled with people. Then from there, of the people who filled the seats, how many of them were Afghan nationals and how many of them were people who worked for the embassy or were Canadian workers? Can we have that information tabled for the committee?

Harjit S. Sajjan Vancouver South, BC, Liberal
Mr. Chair, that information is held within the Ministry of Defence. One thing I can say is that creating that air bridge was extremely important, that work that Canada did to bring that together. Our folks on the ground did amazing work to get many people out. I just want to take this opportunity again to commend them. Every single day, to be able to witness the tremendous work that they did—

Click to read the full discussion from the Committee meeting

Afghanistan Committee on April 4th, 2022
Evidence of meeting #8 for Afghanistan in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session

6:30 p.m.

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number eight of the House of Commons Special Committee on Afghanistan, created pursuant to the order of the House of December 8, 2021.

Today’s meeting is taking place in hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021.

I would like to remind all those present in this room to please follow the recommendations from public health authorities, as well as the directive of the Board of Internal Economy on October 19, 2021, to remain healthy and safe.

Should any technical challenges arise, please advise me, as we may need to suspend for a few minutes to ensure all members are able to participate fully.

Witnesses should also be aware that translation in English and French is available through the globe icon at the bottom of their screen.

As we had discussed during meeting number seven on March 28, I want to outline for the members the tentative schedule for the next few weeks following the break weeks.

On April 25, we will have Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada Sean Fraser and his officials. He will be here for the first hour. For the second hour we will have Minister of Foreign Affairs Mélanie Joly and department officials.

For the May 2 meeting, in the first hour, the tentative witnesses will be Afghan interpreters Masood Matin Hotak, Jamy Kohistany and Zareef Mayar. For the second hour, we tentatively have witnesses Warda Shazadi Meighen from the International Association of Women Judges, and Robert St. Aubin from Rainbow Railroad.

On May 9 for the first hour, we will have Anita Anand, Minister of National Defence and her department officials. For the second hour, we will have Canadian Armed Forces members and department officials.

After May 9, we will begin report consideration beginning with the drafting instructions on May 16 and, hopefully, report consideration on May 30 and June 6. We have been instructed by the House to present our report by June 8, as per the motion creating this special committee.

Is everyone okay with that plan?

Madam Kwan.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I was informed that for the week of April 11, originally we were to have witnesses. However witnesses would not be able to come on April 11. I'd like to propose that for April 11, we invite former Afghan interpreters to come to fill that slot.

I would be able to submit their names and information for the clerk.

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Madam Kwan, I just want to clarify. Are they the same witnesses who are scheduled on May 2?

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

No, they're not.

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Okay.

Is it the will of the committee to...? I don't see any opposition.

I'll instruct on behalf of the committee, Madam Clerk, to please arrange that on April 11.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to committee members.

I'll make sure that information is passed on to the clerk to make the contacts.

 

7 p.m.

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, your time is up. We'll come back to this. Thank you kindly.

Now we'll go to Ms. Kwan for six minutes.

Please go ahead.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the minister and the officials for coming to the committee.

I would like to follow up on this issue.

World Vision Canada's president said:

At World Vision Canada, we have funding and supplies that are needed now but that we cannot send to our teams on the ground. As just one example, we had two containers ready to ship full of packets of ready-to-use therapeutic food, which is used to treat children facing the severest forms of malnutrition.... It was heartbreaking that we had to say no.

This is because the Taliban is on Canada's Anti-terrorism Act's list of terrorist entities. The view is that payment of direct or indirect taxes or fees to them in any form, even for goods like these, would be in violation of this Canadian law.

He then goes on to talk about the Criminal Code, and so on.

The government has been aware of this thanks to witnesses who have testified. They have been aware of this since August. That's eight months ago. There is still no workaround. There is still no resolution. Meanwhile, children are dying. That is the reality of what is happening on the ground.

My question for the minister, who is continuing to study this issue, is, how long is it really going to take? How many more children are going to have to die until they actually find a resolution?

 

Harjit S. Sajjan Vancouver South, BC
Liberal

Mr. Chair, first of all, I appreciate the member's question.

I want to make it very clear that the current law, in terms of our support, has not prevented us...all the funding that we provided for the immediate emergency humanitarian needs of people, especially of children. We are working with partners who have experience and are able to deliver the appropriate support to the women and children who actually need it.

When it comes to this law, as I stated, it does pose a challenge for some organizations that are not able to meet the current parameters we have. The immediate need, right now, is for emergency humanitarian assistance, which we are able to deliver.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

The minister must realize, through you to him, Mr. Chair, that a huge number of people have needs. Even Canada's contribution is not going to be sufficient. World Vision, as well as Care Canada and other Canadian-based organizations, cannot get this work done. They have resources that they have received from other sectors, but they have food packets and medicine ready to go, sitting in containers that they cannot deliver.

I appreciate that, in the meantime, some work is being done, and it should be done. It needs to continue being done. However, there is zero justification in this urgent situation that additional resources are not put on the ground and are allowed to not be put on the ground.

I asked a question of the president and other NGOs to find out if Canada were to enter into an agreement with them—a letter of understanding, a memorandum of understanding and such—to say that if they delivered care packets and such on the ground to starving children and children dying of malnutrition, they would not be prosecuted under Canada's Criminal Code. That would suffice for them to do this work.

Is the minister looking at this option?

 

Harjit S. Sajjan Vancouver South, BC
Liberal

Mr. Chair, I'm glad the member raised this question. In fact, we have been looking at all of the various options and speaking to the organizations directly. I want to reiterate once again that all of the funding we're providing is getting to the people who need it.

I'd like to have Patrick Hill answer the legal question. He can provide greater detail if possible.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
Liberal

No. I'm sorry.

Mr. Chair, I'd like the minister to answer this question. How much longer do these organizations have to wait until he finds a resolution and puts it in operation?

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Minister, I have to respect the member, because—

AS SPOKEN

7:05 p.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Vancouver South, BC
Liberal

Mr. Chair, I'm happy to answer the question. I can't give a timeline. I wish I could.

Right now, as the Minister of International Development, I have to work within the current law that we have. One thing I can assure you, Mr. Chair, all of these members and the entire House is that we are not going to leave any stone unturned to provide support for the Afghan people. That's exactly what we have done. It's the reason we announced our funding very quickly—as early as last December—and we continually do so. We have been monitoring the situation on the ground for the immediate humanitarian needs.

However, to alleviate this, we have been actively working on options—

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you.

 

Harjit S. Sajjan Vancouver South, BC
Liberal

—with other departments, so that we can find a solution for this.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you, Minister.

I have to say this, Mr. Chair. The minister can repeat the same answer over and over again, as he's turning pebble by pebble to turn each rock that he wants to overturn to find the answers.... It's been eight months.

I'm sorry. It is not good enough. The witnesses have said that the government does not feel the urgency of the situation. I think we see that right now from the minister's answers. They do not feel the urgency of the situation to act. Other countries have done it. Canada is the only nation that has not been able to resolve this issue.

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Minister, you have 30 seconds to respond.

 

Harjit S. Sajjan Vancouver South, BC
Liberal

Mr. Chair, I respectfully completely disagree with the member's assertions there. To say that I don't feel the urgency.... I feel the urgency.

I've seen the famine that takes place on the ground. I've seen the positive impact that humanitarian aid can deliver. One thing that I can assure you is that we have acted and we'll continue to act very quickly to make sure that humanitarian support gets there, even as we work through this—

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Just to—excuse me, Minister—

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you, Madame Kwan. You're out of time and—

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

To correct the minister, it's not me; it's the witnesses who have made that assertion.

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

—I will come back to you in the next....

Mr. Chong, please go ahead for your five-minute round. You'll be followed by Madame Zahid and Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe for two and a half minutes, and then Madame Kwan, we'll come to you after that for two and half minutes.

Mr. Chong, please go ahead for five minutes.

 

7:20 p.m.

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you very much, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

Now we will proceed to Madam Kwan for two and a half minutes, please.

Go ahead.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Just to add to that, I've also written to the minister on the same issue. I've yet to receive a response. I think it was back in February when the letter was sent. I'd be happy to offer suggestions as to what the minister and government can do to address this urgent situation.

I'd like to ask the minister a question. Witnesses mentioned that there were flights that left in the evacuation process that were half empty. I wonder if the minister can provide this committee with information on the number of flights that left in the evacuation where seats were left unfilled and how many of those seats were on each of those flights. Can we have that information tabled to the committee, please?

 

Harjit S. Sajjan Vancouver South, BC
Liberal

Mr. Chair, one thing I can say is that, in times of crisis like this, a lot of the decision-making is to make sure that the people on the ground have the appropriate delegation authority to make those decisions. I also just want to take the opportunity to thank the Canadian Armed Forces for the tremendous work they did in extraordinarily difficult circumstances.

I'm not the minister of defence now, and those requests will have to flow through Minister Anand.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

I'm trying to get the stats on how many flights were evacuated, how many seats were on those flights and how many of those seats were filled with people. Then from there, of the people who filled the seats, how many of them were Afghan nationals and how many of them were people who worked for the embassy or were Canadian workers? Can we have that information tabled for the committee?

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Minister, you have 35 seconds to respond.

 

Harjit S. Sajjan Vancouver South, BC
Liberal

Mr. Chair, that information is held within the Ministry of Defence.

One thing I can say is that creating that air bridge was extremely important, that work that Canada did to bring that together. Our folks on the ground did amazing work to get many people out. I just want to take this opportunity again to commend them. Every single day, to be able to witness the tremendous work that they did—

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you, Minister.

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Madam Kwan, your time is up.

We'll come back to the next round now. We have three minutes each. First I will go to Madam Findlay for three minutes, then Mr. El-Khoury for three minutes, and that will end the round.

 

7:55 p.m.

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you very much, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

Now we will go to Madame Kwan for six minutes.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all the officials.

My first question is for Mr. Thoppil.

With respect to Canada's diplomatic relationship with Pakistan, one of our goals, as you just indicated, is to help Afghans get to safety, particularly those who helped serve the Canadian military, and their extended family members. We've heard from witnesses in different places that extended families are not able to get to Canada safely. Some of them have made it to Pakistan, and they are unable, for example, to get their visa or their exit visa. Those are always the reasons, it seems, as to why they cannot get to Canada safely.

What work is being done, on a diplomatic level, for Canada to work with the Pakistani government to help Afghans get to Canada safely?

 

Paul Thoppil
Assistant Deputy Minister, Asia Pacific, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Mr. Chair, we have been working actively on the ground, through our diplomatic mission in Pakistan with the Pakistani officials and ministers, in terms of trying to have recognition of safe passage documents that have been provided to Afghans in order to cross such border crossings as the Torkham border gate. They have been very helpful throughout the crisis, at the height of the crisis acknowledging acceptance of certain documents, but as time has evolved, they have been a little bit more limiting in that.

Quite frankly, they have been very helpful to the extent that they can, given their large burden of hosting three million and not necessarily...acknowledging their concerns of being a draw for more.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Are you still able to do that work now? Are you still able to work with them and continue to bring Afghans to Canada?

 

 

Quite frankly, given limited air routes out, there is an intermittent flow that happens through the Torkham border crossing gate between Afghanistan and Pakistan. As we acknowledge the 10,000 Afghans who came into our country...last week, since the fall of Afghanistan to the Taliban a lot of that traffic has come through the border. That is based on active discussions through officials as well as through ministerial discussions.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Is it possible to make arrangements for Canada to have evacuation flights leaving Pakistan to Canada?

AS SPOKEN

8 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Asia Pacific, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Paul Thoppil

At this juncture, the Taliban do not support charter flights for the evacuation of Afghans. They want their Kabul airport to resume normally scheduled commercial airline traffic. Therefore, there are limits to what like-minded countries, including Canada, can do in order to initiate evacuation charter flights.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

What about evacuation charter flights from neighbouring countries?

 

 

Where significant numbers have accumulated in terms of approved Afghans to be able to come to Canada, IRCC, to my knowledge, has been organizing passage for the Afghans to come. Again, I would acknowledge the 10,000 milestone that was achieved last week.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

If Afghans were able to get from Afghanistan to, let's say, Pakistan.... I know of 300 families—former Afghan interpreters' extended family members—who are trying to get to safety and are unable to do so because IRCC has not processed their application. But other witnesses at this committee have said, “Leave that to us. We will get to a third country ourselves. We'll figure out how to do it.”

If that were to happen, where IRCC actually processes the applications and provides them with the necessary documentation, would your department be able to bring in evacuation flights to bring them out to Canada safely?

 

 

I believe IRCC has the requisite authorities on its own in order to entertain that response back to Afghans who have been processed to come to Canada.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Canada is providing documentation to Ukrainians urgently. Can we not do the same for Afghans?

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Mr. Thoppil, you have 10 seconds.

 

 

I think that's a question that's best addressed to IRCC. Unfortunately, it's not within Global Affairs Canada's purview. I'm sorry.

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you very much, Madam Kwan. That was right on time.

We will now begin our second round. It will be Mr. Hallan for five minutes, Mr. El-Khoury for five minutes, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe for two and a half minutes and Madam Kwan for two and a half minutes.

Mr. Hallan, go ahead, please. You have five minutes.

 

8:15 p.m.

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you very much, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe. Your time is up.

Now we'll go to Madam Kwan for two and a half minutes. Please go ahead.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you.

I'm interested in that question, too.

Mr. Thoppil, is it yes or no?

 

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Mr. Thoppil, do you have the question or do you want Madam Kwan to repeat the question?

 

 

I need to repeat the answer, unfortunately, which is there is still work being done by the civil service among many departments in order to formulate the best advice to the government.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you. I don't mean to be rude. I have limited time. I don't need to hear the same answer over again. I want to move to another area, then.

We just heard from the ADM that it's up to the Minister of Immigrationto make the decision about evacuation flights in Pakistan, including determining whether or not to waive documentation requirements. When that was put to the minister, he then referred it back to other ministries, such as foreign affairs and others.

We have a situation where everybody is saying it's someone else's responsibility. A retired major, as a witness, said that someone has to take the lead to get Afghans safely to Canada.

Mr. Thoppil, could you advise if you have an opinion on who should be taking the lead? Is it immigration?

 

 

IRCC has the mandate in terms of responsibilities for immigration into our country.

Thank you.

 

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you.

Well then, I will ask [Technical difficulty—Editor].

On the next one, I'd like to ask this question. Witnesses last week talked about needing to take a feminist approach and in particular for Canada to reach out to and work together with France, Germany and Sweden to step in where feminist foreign policy is required in this global situation.

Mr. Thoppil, is the ministry doing any work in reaching out to these other countries to take the lead and play a leadership role in taking a feminist approach to addressing the crisis in Afghanistan?

 

https://openparliament.ca/committees/afghanistan-s/44-1/8/jenny-kwan-4/

Latest posts

CIMM#115: Pension Transferability and Access to Mandatory Provident Fund (MPF), and Delays in Permanent Residence and Visas for Hong Kongers Recent Reforms to the International Student Program

James McNamee, Director General, Family and Social Immigration Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
I would say that's generally the case. If the work permit they obtained was originally connected to the public policy, that's correct. I don't know if that's the situation in all cases. In some cases, applicants may have had an LMIA-based work permit to begin with.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC, NDP
That's right. However, under the special immigration measure, the LMIA is not required.  I have a list of applicants in those circumstances. Their work permit renewal application was rejected. They were asked to submit an LMIA, which makes no sense. I want to flag that as a deep concern now emerging for people whose open work permits are being rejected as they wait for their permanent resident status. At this rate, given the immigration levels plan numbers and the processing delays happening, and with the number of applicants in place, you can imagine that it's going to take something like eight years to get through the backlog of people getting their PR status. This means that if they are trying to get their pension, they will not be able to do so for eight years, because they are required to provide proof of permanent residence.
I want to flag this as a major concern. I hope the department will take action to fix the error being applied to applicants whose open work permits are being rejected under this stream.  Can I get a confirmation from officials that this will be undertaken?

James McNamee, Director General, Family and Social Immigration Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Yes, that issue has been raised with the department already, and we're looking into it to see what exactly happened in those situations.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC, NDP
Okay. Officials are aware of it, and yet it's still happening.  I have cases coming to me that are happening. I'm about to prepare a giant pile of this stuff for the minister, so I hope the officials will fix that.  The other thing related to the pension, of course, is lengthy delays for people to get their permanent status.  Based on the immigration levels plan and the number of applicants in place, is it the officials' anticipation that it will take about eight years to get those applications processed?

James McNamee, Director General, Family and Social Immigration Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
We have looked at that possibility. Certainly, it will take longer than we had previously indicated to the committee. I would note that the first year of the levels plan is the fixed year. The years that follow, in this case, 2026 and 2027, are flexible. There are opportunities to adjust those numbers in the future, and that could affect that timeline. It's hard to say whether eight years will be the timeline, but it will be longer than had been originally predicted because the numbers have gone down.

CIMM#114: Recent Reforms to the International Student Program

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
Aside from looking at patterns of potential violators—the groups and organizations taking advantage of students with these fraudulent letters of acceptance—will you be including in the analysis what types of institutions are being utilized for these fraudulent letters? In other words, is it private institutions versus public institutions, colleges versus universities and so on? Will that be part of the analysis?

Bronwyn MayDirector General, International Students Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
It's not always the case that a letter originates from an institution. We would need to look at various possible sources.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
Maybe I can reframe that.
Obviously, as these are fraudulent letters of acceptance, they wouldn't be issued by the institutions. However, regarding the list of institutions being used for the purpose of these fraudulent letters, I would be interested in obtaining information to determine what percentage are private institutions and public institutions, how many of them are colleges, how many of them are universities and so on. That will tell us very specific information that I think is important when trying to tackle fraudulent activities.

Bronwyn May, Director General, International Students Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
I completely agree. That's a very important line of analysis.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
I will make the further request to make sure you share this information with the committee. I'll argue that this information should not be kept secret. It should be public and transparent—shared with all Canadians—so that we're aware of what the landscape is and of how international students are being taken advantage of. With respect to that analysis, will there be information and data on what countries are being targeted?

Click to read the full discussion from the Committee meeting

CIMM#113: Pension Transferability and Access to Mandatory Provident Fund (MPF), and Delays in Permanent Residence and Visas for Hong Kongers

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
All right. Thank you.
Hence, we have this problem. You have the Canadian government, which created this lifeboat scheme for Hong Kongers who are fleeing persecution in Hong Kong as a result of the national security law. The government, in its wisdom or lack thereof, created this lifeboat scheme that only provides for temporary residence by way of a work permit or a study permit. Then these people have to go to the queue to make an application for permanent residence, and we know that there is a huge backlog and delay in processing.
In the beginning, there was swift action, but as time has passed, it's been lengthened by way of the delay, to the point where the former minister even made an announcement to further extend people's work permits and study permits for another three years. That is to say, a person could be here for six years—as long as six years—under this current scheme without getting permanent residence. This is because the minister anticipated that people would not be able to swiftly get their permanent resident status. That is the reality.
As a result of that, people are not able to provide proof of permanent residence, because the application is in process. To make it even worse, the government—the minister—just made an announcement about the levels plan, cutting levels to the tune of 105,000 permanent resident status applications.
You can imagine how long the wait-list is for Hong Kongers as they continue to wait. Now, these Hong Kongers have zero intention of returning to Hong Kong, because they know that they would be persecuted if they did. People know that. I think the Canadian government knows that.
This is my question, then, to you as the manager of their pension, which, because of this rule, they're unable to access: Would your organization be willing to write to the regulator to ask for consideration for these applicants who are in a prolonged period of waiting for permanent resident status, to ask that their declaration indicating that they do not intend to return to Hong Kong be accepted as proof that they intend to leave Hong Kong permanently so that they can access their pensions? Is that something that your organization would consider doing?

Maryscott GreenwoodGlobal Head, Government Relations, The Manufacturers Life Insurance Company
I think I understand the question.
The basic premise of your question has to do with the period of time it takes for the Government of Canada to determine and provide permanent residency or citizenship. It seems to me that this is a function of the Government of Canada, as opposed to a regulated entity. That's how I would answer that.

Laura HewittSenior Vice-President and Head, Global Government Affairs and Public Policy, Sun Life Financial Services of Canada Inc.
Yes. I would say that it's not within our authority to change the criteria.
However, our numbers show that once that permanent residency does come through, we're able to process the applications and approve Canadian permanent residents.

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