In Canada, there are already over 500,000 people here as migrant workers or undocumented, which is to say, people who have lost their status for one reason or another. With regard to the immigration levels numbers, the government is silent on the undocumented workers or undocumented people who are here, and the migrant workers.
In your opinion, do you think that the government should put a laser focus on regularizing the people who are already in Canada to meet our labour skills shortage? That would include refugees who are here, people who came from a different country trying to seek refuge in Canada.
I'll ask Ms. Gilbert, and then I will go to Mr. Bhatti...
CIMM: Jenny addressing immigration backlogs and processing times
House of Commons Debate
Citizenship and Immigration Committee
Nov. 1st, 2022 4:05 p.m.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
Thanks very much, Madam Chair.
Thank you to all the witnesses for their presentations.
I want to build on this conversation. The government, year after year, has missed the target, yet the immigration levels just came out again with the same old target. There are no new initiatives attached to it, and there's no new approach to it.
Based on the historical record, do you believe that the government will actually reach their 4.4% target?
Yves-Gérard Méhou-Loko
Vice-President, Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada
We hope so. We've come here for reassurance about the intentions of Canada's government and elected representatives.
Today, we are once again calling upon Canada's elected representatives to implement a strategy to ensure that this 4.4% target be reached by 2023, and in 2024, that a target of 12% be initiated to make up for lost ground, and significantly slow the the diminishing demographic weight of Canada's francophonie outside Quebec.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
Given that—
Alain Dupuis
NDP
Given that—
Alain Dupuis
Director General, Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada
I would add that separate programs are required. The mistake over the past 15 to 20 years has been to think that programs designed for the majority could function for the minority. It's not simply a matter of establishing a new target. All sorts of other mechanisms, programs and appropriate tools for the current circumstances need to be developed. The population bases are different and the needs are not the same.
I would add that separate programs are required. The mistake over the past 15 to 20 years has been to think that programs designed for the majority could function for the minority. It's not simply a matter of establishing a new target. All sorts of other mechanisms, programs and appropriate tools for the current circumstances need to be developed. The population bases are different and the needs are not the same.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
Thank you very much.
I was going to say that, in addition to the target, you need substantive actions. I'm glad that you clarified that.
If you have any submissions you would like to provide to the committee on what specific actions the government should take to reach that target, please provide that to us, so we can make sure it is incorporated into our report as recommendations for the government.
I'd like to turn now to Ms. Gilbert.
Thank you, first of all, to you and your community for the great work that you do.
Today, again on the immigration levels numbers, the government is actually reducing the number of refugees coming to Canada at a time when there is a global humanitarian crisis. Instead of, at the very minimum, sustaining those numbers, the government is actually reducing them.
Ms. Gilbert, I wonder if you have thoughts with respect to that. What will that mean for the backlog and delays in processing, given that especially right now, with the privately sponsored refugees, the wait time is at least three years?
NDP
Thank you very much.
I was going to say that, in addition to the target, you need substantive actions. I'm glad that you clarified that.
If you have any submissions you would like to provide to the committee on what specific actions the government should take to reach that target, please provide that to us, so we can make sure it is incorporated into our report as recommendations for the government.
I'd like to turn now to Ms. Gilbert.
Thank you, first of all, to you and your community for the great work that you do.
Today, again on the immigration levels numbers, the government is actually reducing the number of refugees coming to Canada at a time when there is a global humanitarian crisis. Instead of, at the very minimum, sustaining those numbers, the government is actually reducing them.
Ms. Gilbert, I wonder if you have thoughts with respect to that. What will that mean for the backlog and delays in processing, given that especially right now, with the privately sponsored refugees, the wait time is at least three years?
Shelley Gilbert
Coordinator, Social Work Services, Legal Assistance of Windsor
I think that is one of the concerns. Certainly there is a need for people to come for work purposes. We also know that many people continue to require the protection of the Canadian government and need to resettle here as a result of persecution in their countries of origin. We hope the Canadian government will raise the number of refugees accepted, and also recognize that many people apply under humanitarian and compassionate grounds considerations as well.
The individuals we work with very often come to Canada as workers at times and are looking for opportunities to flee violence and also provide for their families. We want to ensure that people who are able to come are able to understand and be provided with the information they need to make the best decisions to keep themselves safe and to ensure the well-being and safety of their children as well.
One of the most important goals of Legal Assistance of Windsor is ensuring that individuals have the information they need so that they can make those decisions going forward.
I think that is one of the concerns. Certainly there is a need for people to come for work purposes. We also know that many people continue to require the protection of the Canadian government and need to resettle here as a result of persecution in their countries of origin. We hope the Canadian government will raise the number of refugees accepted, and also recognize that many people apply under humanitarian and compassionate grounds considerations as well.
The individuals we work with very often come to Canada as workers at times and are looking for opportunities to flee violence and also provide for their families. We want to ensure that people who are able to come are able to understand and be provided with the information they need to make the best decisions to keep themselves safe and to ensure the well-being and safety of their children as well.
One of the most important goals of Legal Assistance of Windsor is ensuring that individuals have the information they need so that they can make those decisions going forward.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
In Canada, there are already over 500,000 people here as migrant workers or undocumented, which is to say, people who have lost their status for one reason or another. With regard to the immigration levels numbers, the government is silent on the undocumented workers or undocumented people who are here, and the migrant workers.
In your opinion, do you think that the government should put a laser focus on regularizing the people who are already in Canada to meet our labour skills shortage? That would include refugees who are here, people who came from a different country trying to seek refuge in Canada.
I'll ask Ms. Gilbert, and then I will go to Mr. Bhatti.
NDP
In Canada, there are already over 500,000 people here as migrant workers or undocumented, which is to say, people who have lost their status for one reason or another. With regard to the immigration levels numbers, the government is silent on the undocumented workers or undocumented people who are here, and the migrant workers.
In your opinion, do you think that the government should put a laser focus on regularizing the people who are already in Canada to meet our labour skills shortage? That would include refugees who are here, people who came from a different country trying to seek refuge in Canada.
I'll ask Ms. Gilbert, and then I will go to Mr. Bhatti.
Shelley Gilbert
Coordinator, Social Work Services, Legal Assistance of Windsor
I think that many of the people who are here currently and who have lost their status—for a number of different reasons—deserve the chance to make an application to remain in Canada. They have contributed and continue to contribute to our economy.
They also have many different stories and many different reasons as to why they have to remain in Canada. Many of those have to do with the extreme violence they were experiencing in their country of origin. Allowing people the opportunity to know about and to have programs that are accessible to them and that they are able to follow through with is a really important message to be given to government.
I think that many of the people who are here currently and who have lost their status—for a number of different reasons—deserve the chance to make an application to remain in Canada. They have contributed and continue to contribute to our economy.
They also have many different stories and many different reasons as to why they have to remain in Canada. Many of those have to do with the extreme violence they were experiencing in their country of origin. Allowing people the opportunity to know about and to have programs that are accessible to them and that they are able to follow through with is a really important message to be given to government.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
Thank you.
Mr. Bhatti, on the question around regularizing the people who are already here, given that there are over 500,000 people who are either undocumented or migrant workers here in Canada, do you think the government should actually put a strong focus on regularizing them to meet the labour skills shortage?
NDP
Thank you.
Mr. Bhatti, on the question around regularizing the people who are already here, given that there are over 500,000 people who are either undocumented or migrant workers here in Canada, do you think the government should actually put a strong focus on regularizing them to meet the labour skills shortage?
Peter Bhatti
Chairman, International Christian Voice
First of all they need to get the documentation as to how many people are here, and priority should be given to those people who have skills or talent in this country. Then they can make—
First of all they need to get the documentation as to how many people are here, and priority should be given to those people who have skills or talent in this country. Then they can make—
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________
4:25 p.m.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I'd like to go to Mr. Dupuis, if I may, on that previous question, because the status of a lot of francophones who are here may be running out or they are undocumented. What do you think the government should do? Should they be regularizing those individuals?
Alain Dupuis
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I'd like to go to Mr. Dupuis, if I may, on that previous question, because the status of a lot of francophones who are here may be running out or they are undocumented. What do you think the government should do? Should they be regularizing those individuals?
Alain Dupuis
Director General, Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada
I think so.
During the COVID‑19 pandemic, a temporary program was introduced, called the the Temporary Resident to Permanent Resident Pathway. Thousands of applications were submitted under this program. The problem was that not enough of the applications could be processed for it to have an impact during the pandemic. We'll be watching for its impact this year and next year.
We feel that the idea of a permanent pathway for francophone temporary residents to become permanent residents should be explored, in addition to much faster pathways for students who receive Canadian credentials.
But there's a problem here. Students are asked to come and study here, but they have to prove that they will return to their country. For Canada's francophonie, this way of proceeding runs completely counter to the federal government's policy on francophone immigration.
We are therefore in favour of these rapid pathways to permanent residency.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
Thank you for that.
The other piece is that, with other studies, IRCC has admitted there's discrimination and racism within IRCC. We are seeing deplorable numbers for francophone African students, for example.
Specifically related to systemic issues, what do you think the government should do to ensure that we meet the targets?
I think so.
During the COVID‑19 pandemic, a temporary program was introduced, called the the Temporary Resident to Permanent Resident Pathway. Thousands of applications were submitted under this program. The problem was that not enough of the applications could be processed for it to have an impact during the pandemic. We'll be watching for its impact this year and next year.
We feel that the idea of a permanent pathway for francophone temporary residents to become permanent residents should be explored, in addition to much faster pathways for students who receive Canadian credentials.
But there's a problem here. Students are asked to come and study here, but they have to prove that they will return to their country. For Canada's francophonie, this way of proceeding runs completely counter to the federal government's policy on francophone immigration.
We are therefore in favour of these rapid pathways to permanent residency.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
Thank you for that.
The other piece is that, with other studies, IRCC has admitted there's discrimination and racism within IRCC. We are seeing deplorable numbers for francophone African students, for example.
Specifically related to systemic issues, what do you think the government should do to ensure that we meet the targets?
Yves-Gérard Méhou-Loko
Vice-President, Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada
Your question is extremely important, Ms. Kwan.
The problem of discrimination and racism is unfortunately real. It has to be dealt with as quickly as possible to ensure that applications are received and that processing is entirely impartial, fair and equitable, with a view to promoting immigration.
It's the first signal sent to a visa applicant. If at the outset the processing of an application is biased, one can only then imagine how things will go with respect to becoming integrated into and included in Canadian society.
That's why it will be important to have totally decompartmentalized procedures to promote much more equitable mechanisms. At the moment, the government needs to do more to make these procedures more equitable, particularly at IRCC.
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Your question is extremely important, Ms. Kwan.
The problem of discrimination and racism is unfortunately real. It has to be dealt with as quickly as possible to ensure that applications are received and that processing is entirely impartial, fair and equitable, with a view to promoting immigration.
It's the first signal sent to a visa applicant. If at the outset the processing of an application is biased, one can only then imagine how things will go with respect to becoming integrated into and included in Canadian society.
That's why it will be important to have totally decompartmentalized procedures to promote much more equitable mechanisms. At the moment, the government needs to do more to make these procedures more equitable, particularly at IRCC.
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Salma Zahid, The Chair
Liberal
Thank you.
With that, this panel has come to an end.
On behalf of the members of this committee, I want to thank all the witnesses for appearing before the committee.
We will suspend the meeting for a few minutes so we can get the witnesses for the second panel set up.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________
5:10 p.m.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
NDP
Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.
Thank you to all the witnesses. My first question is for Mr. Désir.
In our previous panel, the suggestion was that the government should in fact up the 4.4% target to 12%, so as to restore the missed targets over the years. Is that something you would support?
Saint-Phard Désir
Thank you to all the witnesses. My first question is for Mr. Désir.
In our previous panel, the suggestion was that the government should in fact up the 4.4% target to 12%, so as to restore the missed targets over the years. Is that something you would support?
Saint-Phard Désir
Executive Director, Ottawa Local Immigration Partnership
Yes, this is something we support with the FCFA. The francophone community would like to see a higher percentage so we can get more francophones coming in to make up for the lower percentages we've seen in past years.
Yes, this is something we support with the FCFA. The francophone community would like to see a higher percentage so we can get more francophones coming in to make up for the lower percentages we've seen in past years.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
Thank you.
Just to build on that, the other aspect of it is that we have a large number of people already here in Canada—migrant workers and students, as well as undocumented individuals—many of whom would fall among francophone community members. Should the government be bringing forward an immigration measure to regularize those individuals?
NDP
Thank you.
Just to build on that, the other aspect of it is that we have a large number of people already here in Canada—migrant workers and students, as well as undocumented individuals—many of whom would fall among francophone community members. Should the government be bringing forward an immigration measure to regularize those individuals?
Saint-Phard Désir
Executive Director, Ottawa Local Immigration Partnership
Certainly.
We've been calling for this with the Ontario Council of Agencies Serving Immigrants (OCASI) and the Canadian Council for Refugees (CCR). It would absolutely be important for those who are already here. It would be a very good thing to regularize individuals who are already here. It would even be a good thing to regularize temporary workers.
Certainly.
We've been calling for this with the Ontario Council of Agencies Serving Immigrants (OCASI) and the Canadian Council for Refugees (CCR). It would absolutely be important for those who are already here. It would be a very good thing to regularize individuals who are already here. It would even be a good thing to regularize temporary workers.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
Thank you very much.
Bringing a similar question to Ms. Potter, given the labour skills shortage in the tourism sector, while I understand that you're pushing for a temporary foreign workers scheme to be expanded, the other reality, of course, is that there are a large number of people who are already here. Some of them lost status over the COVID period. Some of them are in fact from the tourism sector, and because of the downturn with the jobs and the closures that were required, they then lost their status. There are people who are ready to work, but because they don't have the status, they can't work.
Do you think that the government should be regularizing them? Should that not be a pool that we should absolutely try to target to meet the labour skills shortage?
Thank you very much.
Bringing a similar question to Ms. Potter, given the labour skills shortage in the tourism sector, while I understand that you're pushing for a temporary foreign workers scheme to be expanded, the other reality, of course, is that there are a large number of people who are already here. Some of them lost status over the COVID period. Some of them are in fact from the tourism sector, and because of the downturn with the jobs and the closures that were required, they then lost their status. There are people who are ready to work, but because they don't have the status, they can't work.
Do you think that the government should be regularizing them? Should that not be a pool that we should absolutely try to target to meet the labour skills shortage?
Beth Potter
President and Chief Executive Officer, Tourism Industry Association of Canada
Certainly if we have a labour pool that is already invested in our industry here in Canada and ready to work, absolutely.
Certainly if we have a labour pool that is already invested in our industry here in Canada and ready to work, absolutely.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
Would you call for the government to regularize undocumented and migrant workers, people with temporary status, who are already here in Canada?
NDP
Would you call for the government to regularize undocumented and migrant workers, people with temporary status, who are already here in Canada?
Beth Potter
President and Chief Executive Officer, Tourism Industry Association of Canada
As part of a series of other measures we are applying for the government to do, that can be included, for sure.
As part of a series of other measures we are applying for the government to do, that can be included, for sure.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
Thank you very much.
In that pool, there are in fact health care workers, caregivers who have come to Canada and undertaken the work to get their skill set to become a nurse in the health care sector. However, because of immigration rules, they can only work for that specific employer. They can't go work for anyone else. Therefore, they can't meet the shortage in our health care system. That's just one example. There are many people who are ready, willing and able to do this work, but unable to do so because of immigration issues.
I'd like to turn to Ms. Schemitsch on the processing delay issue.
One thing the government likes to do is say it will bring in new resources to target new applications, but meanwhile the people who already applied are stuck there. There's no focus in addressing that backlog.
To that end, what are your thoughts on that? What should the government do? Otherwise, all of those people who are already in the system, the 1.5 million people minimum, are stuck in the system, waiting and waiting.
NDP
Thank you very much.
In that pool, there are in fact health care workers, caregivers who have come to Canada and undertaken the work to get their skill set to become a nurse in the health care sector. However, because of immigration rules, they can only work for that specific employer. They can't go work for anyone else. Therefore, they can't meet the shortage in our health care system. That's just one example. There are many people who are ready, willing and able to do this work, but unable to do so because of immigration issues.
I'd like to turn to Ms. Schemitsch on the processing delay issue.
One thing the government likes to do is say it will bring in new resources to target new applications, but meanwhile the people who already applied are stuck there. There's no focus in addressing that backlog.
To that end, what are your thoughts on that? What should the government do? Otherwise, all of those people who are already in the system, the 1.5 million people minimum, are stuck in the system, waiting and waiting.
Laura Schemitsch
Immigration and Refugee Lawyer, Race and Company LLP
Thank you for your question.
Again, I believe it's a question of transparency. The government is stating that it will address these backlogs through certain measures, but we see people who are submitting applications more recently than those who submitted applications at the peak height of the pandemic and who have not heard anything about those applications and have no idea of the status of those applications. Those resources, in part, need to basically provide more transparency about how the backlog is being dealt with.
If someone submits their application currently, in November 2022, how long is it going to take for that person's application to be processed, and then, how are we addressing those people who submitted their applications in March 2020 and are still waiting for a response?
Thank you for your question.
Again, I believe it's a question of transparency. The government is stating that it will address these backlogs through certain measures, but we see people who are submitting applications more recently than those who submitted applications at the peak height of the pandemic and who have not heard anything about those applications and have no idea of the status of those applications. Those resources, in part, need to basically provide more transparency about how the backlog is being dealt with.
If someone submits their application currently, in November 2022, how long is it going to take for that person's application to be processed, and then, how are we addressing those people who submitted their applications in March 2020 and are still waiting for a response?
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
Thank you for that.
The reality is that, when the government makes these announcements, they say that these new applications will meet the target and say nothing about the people who are stuck in the backlog. There hasn't been any processing since 2019 in the caregiver stream, as an example. People are basically stuck there.
We are speaking about transparency. The reality is that it is opaque. The system is opaque. Should the government put in place an independent ombudsperson, so we can trust the information that's being put out and what's going on in the system?
NDP
Thank you for that.
The reality is that, when the government makes these announcements, they say that these new applications will meet the target and say nothing about the people who are stuck in the backlog. There hasn't been any processing since 2019 in the caregiver stream, as an example. People are basically stuck there.
We are speaking about transparency. The reality is that it is opaque. The system is opaque. Should the government put in place an independent ombudsperson, so we can trust the information that's being put out and what's going on in the system?
Laura Schemitsch
Immigration and Refugee Lawyer, Race and Company LLP
Absolutely. I think it's very important that applicants are able to receive specific responses about their current applications. It is not enough to provide a status update tool or some other kind of generic tool. It is important that applicants are able to receive specific updates. If that means that an independent ombudsman must facilitate some kind of process to ensure that, then I believe it should happen.
Absolutely. I think it's very important that applicants are able to receive specific responses about their current applications. It is not enough to provide a status update tool or some other kind of generic tool. It is important that applicants are able to receive specific updates. If that means that an independent ombudsman must facilitate some kind of process to ensure that, then I believe it should happen.
Salma Zahid, The Chair
I'm sorry for interrupting, but the time is up for Ms. Kwan.
Now we will proceed to our second round. We will begin that with Mr. Kmiec.
Mr. Kmiec, you will have four minutes for your round of questioning. You can please begin.
I'm sorry for interrupting, but the time is up for Ms. Kwan.
Now we will proceed to our second round. We will begin that with Mr. Kmiec.
Mr. Kmiec, you will have four minutes for your round of questioning. You can please begin.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________
5:25 p.m.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
Thank you, Madam Chair.
My question is for Mr. Désir.
The issues are systemic racism within IRCC, the processing delays and a variety of other issues, not the least of which is the government missing the targets for francophone immigrants to Canada. Given that this is the state of play, do you think the Canadian government should put in place an independent ombudsperson to look at all of these problems and issues and to make recommendations for government to take action?
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
Thank you, Madam Chair.
My question is for Mr. Désir.
The issues are systemic racism within IRCC, the processing delays and a variety of other issues, not the least of which is the government missing the targets for francophone immigrants to Canada. Given that this is the state of play, do you think the Canadian government should put in place an independent ombudsperson to look at all of these problems and issues and to make recommendations for government to take action?
Saint-Phard Désir
Executive Director, Ottawa Local Immigration Partnership
I believe it's always a good idea to have an ombudsperson. However, I can't prove that these delays are due to racism rather than existing regulations.
For example, international students are told that the reason they're being rejected is because they are not providing proof that they will return to their country, regardless of their country of origin.
In my view, it's not necessarily racism, but we're also not walking the talk here. We're telling them to come study in Canada so that they can stay in Canada.
When it comes to the permanent resident application processing backlog, in my opinion, the major problem is that there aren't enough visa offices.
In any event, it would not be a bad thing to have an ombudsperson.
I believe it's always a good idea to have an ombudsperson. However, I can't prove that these delays are due to racism rather than existing regulations.
For example, international students are told that the reason they're being rejected is because they are not providing proof that they will return to their country, regardless of their country of origin.
In my view, it's not necessarily racism, but we're also not walking the talk here. We're telling them to come study in Canada so that they can stay in Canada.
When it comes to the permanent resident application processing backlog, in my opinion, the major problem is that there aren't enough visa offices.
In any event, it would not be a bad thing to have an ombudsperson.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
Yes. On the issue around racism and discrimination, we learned from the other study that a number of different factors are in play, including immigration policies that bias against individuals from certain countries, because inherently the requirements for them to prove that they will return to their country of origin are heightened and increased. To address that systemic issue, something needs to be done if we want to bring equalization to that question. Of course, that would be a thing that I think an independent ombudsperson would or should look into—
NDP
Yes. On the issue around racism and discrimination, we learned from the other study that a number of different factors are in play, including immigration policies that bias against individuals from certain countries, because inherently the requirements for them to prove that they will return to their country of origin are heightened and increased. To address that systemic issue, something needs to be done if we want to bring equalization to that question. Of course, that would be a thing that I think an independent ombudsperson would or should look into—
Salma Zahid, The Chair
I'm sorry for interrupting, Ms. Kwan. Your time is up.
The time is up for this panel. On behalf of all the members of this committee, I want to thank all the witnesses for appearing before the committee. If there is something you would like to bring to the notice of the members and you were not able to discuss because of the time, you can always send a written submission to the clerk of the committee. We will take that into consideration as we go through the draft report.
For the information of members, our next meeting will take place on Friday. We will complete the draft report consideration of differential outcomes. At the request of the analyst, we will have to use version three, because it can be very confusing to follow that. To make sure we complete that on Friday, please go through version three and be ready. We will be going through version three of the report.
With that, the meeting is adjourned. We'll see you all on Friday.
I'm sorry for interrupting, Ms. Kwan. Your time is up.
The time is up for this panel. On behalf of all the members of this committee, I want to thank all the witnesses for appearing before the committee. If there is something you would like to bring to the notice of the members and you were not able to discuss because of the time, you can always send a written submission to the clerk of the committee. We will take that into consideration as we go through the draft report.
For the information of members, our next meeting will take place on Friday. We will complete the draft report consideration of differential outcomes. At the request of the analyst, we will have to use version three, because it can be very confusing to follow that. To make sure we complete that on Friday, please go through version three and be ready. We will be going through version three of the report.
With that, the meeting is adjourned. We'll see you all on Friday.
