CIMM#92: Closed Work Permits, Temporary Foreign Workers and Committee Business

I want to thank the special rapporteur for joining us today at committee. I also very much appreciate your coming to Canada and looking into this issue.

As many of the witnesses have said to us, the issue around the immigration system as it's set up, with the closed work permit approach, is that it actually sets these workers up for exploitation. From that perspective.... It's not to say, as the Conservatives would suggest, that you were alleging that all employers abuse workers. I don't believe you said that at any point in time; rather, I think the issue is about the immigration system that Canada has.

Instead of having this closed work permit situation, what would you say is the remedy to address the exploitation that many of the migrant workers you spoke with directly experienced?

Special Rapporteur on Contemporary Forms of Slavery, United Nations, As an Individual
Tomoya Obokata

My recommendation is, certainly, to modify the closed nature of the program. If the workers are able to choose their employers at their own will, that reduces the instances of abuse and exploitation.

More importantly, whether it's closed or not, employers have to comply with the relevant legal obligations. I accept that a large number of employers already do. It's those others who do not who require further attention from the provincial and federal governments to see whether they can take appropriate law enforcement actions against those who breach labour standards legislation.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

With respect to exploitation, one of the issues that migrant workers are faced with is that they don't have full status here in Canada; they have only temporary status. One issue that has been identified is the closed work permit. The other issue is in terms of having rights. Being able to have their rights protected also means that they have to have status here in Canada.

How would you suggest the policy side of things should be amended to ensure that these migrant workers have their rights protected?

Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Feb. 26th, 2024
Evidence of meeting #92 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session

11:30 a.m.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the special rapporteur for joining us today at committee. I also very much appreciate your coming to Canada and looking into this issue.

Instead of having this closed work permit situation, what would you say is the remedy to address the exploitation that many of the migrant workers you spoke with directly experienced?

Special Rapporteur on Contemporary Forms of Slavery, United Nations, As an Individual
Tomoya Obokata

My recommendation is, certainly, to modify the closed nature of the program. If the workers are able to choose their employers at their own will, that reduces the instances of abuse and exploitation.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

How would you suggest the policy side of things should be amended to ensure that these migrant workers have their rights protected?

Special Rapporteur on Contemporary Forms of Slavery, United Nations, As an Individual
Tomoya Obokata

I believe there's a gap right now where certain migrant workers do have a pathway for long-term and permanent residency, yet many of the workers in the agriculture and low-wage streams do not have that opportunity, and I find that discriminatory. I believe they make a vital contribution to your economy. Therefore, they should be given the opportunity to go for long-term...if they so wish. I'm sure that many workers do want to go home because they have their families, but those who wish to make further contributions should be given that opportunity. As they pay equal amounts of tax, they certainly should be entitled to all the benefits that citizens enjoy.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Some of these workers came to Canada as migrant workers—for example, in the agriculture sector—for decades. They literally came year after year in this temporary status. Now, it's true that some may not want to have permanent status, but some may. From that perspective, should Canada be putting in an immigration policy that gives these workers landed status on arrival?

Special Rapporteur on Contemporary Forms of Slavery, United Nations, As an Individual
Tomoya Obokata

Do you mean that, as soon as they arrive, they'll be given long-term status? Is that what you're hinting at?

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

That is correct.

Special Rapporteur on Contemporary Forms of Slavery, United Nations, As an Individual
Tomoya Obokata

If that's the case, then yes, I would certainly encourage that. I think there are other countries that are considering similar things. As you said, it's a circular labour migration. The migrant agriculture workers, as you highlighted, do come every year, so why not give them all freedom so that they can come and go without limits, restrictions or threats? I think that will eventually lead to their protection.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

In your preliminary report, you discussed the lack of social housing, in particular, as a contributing factor to the vulnerability of migrant workers. We know that Canada's share of housing stock is pitiful in comparison to the OECD average. Can you expand on the issue of housing as part of the solution to the exploitation of migrant workers?

Special Rapporteur on Contemporary Forms of Slavery, United Nations, As an Individual
Tomoya Obokata

Tomoya Obokata

I looked at only a few sectors, like agriculture, where accommodations are tied to the employers, and that's also where exploitation and abuse may happen. I think the worker should be able to live apart from their own employers if they so wish.

However, I do appreciate that social housing is a problem, not just for migrant workers but, at the same time, for the general Canadian public as well. Again, it is for the local government to consider building and making more affordable housing for everyone, including migrant workers, but oftentimes refugees and migrant workers are at the bottom of their priorities. I think that is an unfortunate approach, and I would recommend to the government to treat everyone equally.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal

Ms. Kwan, you have 10 seconds.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC

Do you have anything else to add?

Special Rapporteur on Contemporary Forms of Slavery, United Nations, As an Individual
Tomoya Obokata

No.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you, Ms. Kwan.

Now we go to the honourable member Mr. Kmiec for five minutes.

Please go ahead.

11:50 a.m.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you very much, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

I have quite a speaking list. After Mr. Redekopp, I have Ms. Kwan, Ms. Kayabaga, Mr. Chiang, Mr. Maguire and then Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe. If there are any other members, I have to entertain them. It seems like a long list, but it's up to the members whether they want to continue with the debate on this motion, which is all in order, and to relieve the special rapporteur.

It's your call. I, as the chair, am here to facilitate.

Ms. Kwan.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

On that point, Mr. Chair, after this, we have one hour in which we can discuss committee business, including our instructions to the analysts for our report. I would suggest that we pause this so that we can actually have the witness.... We tried, Mr. Chair, as you know, on several occasions to get him to join the committee.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Ms. Kwan, to facilitate this, I can suspend the meeting for two minutes. You can go and talk with the honourable members. If you have consensus, I will do that. Otherwise, I will give the floor to Mr. Redekopp.

Brad Redekopp Saskatoon West, SK
Conservative

I would like to continue.

I'm okay with excusing the witness, if the committee would like to do that. Otherwise, I'll continue.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Maybe, Mr. Chair—

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

There's no consensus.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Maybe we can ask whether or not our witness can stay longer. Hopefully this will wrap up soon, so that we may be able to finish our rounds of questions with this very important witness.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

I can ask that question.

Mr. Obokata, would you be able to stay longer?

Special Rapporteur on Contemporary Forms of Slavery, United Nations, As an Individual
Tomoya Obokata

Yes. It depends on how much longer. That is the question, I suppose.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

I can't dictate that, because it's up to the members. If there's no adjournment of the debate, as the chair, I have to respect the honourable members.

I have quite a speaking list. I already see another member. Ms. Zahid is on the speaking list as well. I can't say for how long a member is going to speak.

Here we go. It's an open-ended question.

I'm going to Mr. Redekopp. The floor is yours.

Brad Redekopp Saskatoon West, SK
Conservative

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just want to continue with my line of thinking here. Because of some of the things that are happening in our country—you can go all the way back to things like the cost of living, the terrible inflation we have and the difficulty people are having in finding houses—we have youth in our country who sometimes don't have a lot of options for how to feed themselves, and they are vulnerable. Then, at the same time, we have laws that have been relaxed, making them less onerous, I guess. We're making it easier to commit crimes without fear of consequences. These are things that have been done by the current government.

Then, we have cartels and gangs that see an opportunity. In the case of this story, the allegation is that Mexicans are coming to Canada and then getting smuggled back into the U.S.A. Cartels are all about making money; that's their primary goal. They don't care how they do it, and they don't care whom they hurt in the process. That's not their concern. What they see here, then, is the lack of rules or the slackening of our rules. The loopholes that this government has created in our rules have created vulnerabilities in our country. The cartels are very creative when they look at how they can best make money, so they see these loopholes. They see the lessening of laws as an opportunity for them to exploit people.

We have to remember that there's no love lost for cartels here. The terrible part, the tragedy in this, is the people who get unwittingly involved in this, the youth and others who are involved in the crimes.

Oftentimes, as I've said before, it can be women and girls who are trafficked into all kinds of slavery and prostitution. It's not that they went looking for it. It's not something they even wanted, but they end up there because we allow cartels and gangs to have this power. We've neglected to put proper laws in place and proper consequences to breaking the law.

That's what we're hearing from this article, and that's why we think it's important that we hear from the minister on this and get his take. As my colleague pointed out, there are some very troubling inconsistencies in the testimony we heard from the government itself and from what was said when the minister was here with the officials versus what we're reading in this article. There are questions we need to ask. Maybe, as was said by my colleague, they were just mistakes or inadvertent things said in error. I'm not sure, but we need to find out. Were there actual reports? Is there proper documentation of this?

The article is not necessarily naming a specific cartel, but—and this is from the article—“members of organized crime groups have been identified as being involved.” This is something that's very serious. It's something we need to look at, I think, urgently at the committee. It doesn't have to take a long time, as is pointed out in this motion.

We always talk about having the minister here, but we also need officials, because we need to understand at a deeper level what's being done and get to the truth. The most important thing here is that we have a conflict between what was told to this committee and what we're reading here. I think that's something that we as committee members should be very concerned about.

Mr. Chair, you should be concerned about this as well, because we want to protect the integrity of the committee here in that we get information that allows us to understand the situation and make good decisions. When that's in question, that's not good for anybody. It's not just bad for our committee; it's bad for all committees. We need to make sure that the information we're getting here is accurate.

That's why I think that this is an important motion and an important, quick study we can do, and I give my support to my colleague in doing this.

With that, I will end.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you.

Now we will go to Ms. Kwan.

Ms. Kwan, you are next on the speaking list.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I have to say how disappointed I am for this committee to be at this juncture, where we have a very special witness, the special rapporteur, whom we've been trying to get to this committee for some time now. We had to cancel previously because of technical difficulties, and we finally have him here on this very important study on exploitation, which is not too far from the whole issue of human trafficking. When people are exploited in their work environment, that is something we should take seriously. If the immigration system facilitates that process, we should be hearing witnesses on this issue and on how to address it. We have a special rapporteur who's come to Canada to study this issue and is willing to offer his expertise and his learnings to this committee so that we can better address these issues.

We now have a situation where the Conservatives are moving a motion in the middle of the special witness's presentation and discussion with us. I think that's not courteous, to say the very least, especially in light of the fact that after this first hour, we will have time to do exactly that. I can't tell you how disappointed I am, and disgusted, frankly, with this tactic and this approach.

That's not to say that the issue under discussion with this motion is not an important one. I would even be willing to consider it, but not at this time. We need to cede this time to the rapporteur so that we can get this work done. We need to hear his expertise and complete that work, so that we can get on with the report and make the necessary recommendations to the government.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you, Ms. Kwan.

Ms. Kayabaga, go ahead, please.

12:25 p.m.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Ms. Kwan, go ahead, please.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I just want to touch on the issue around undocumented workers. I think I heard you say that the government should be undertaking regularization for the undocumented workers. Can you expand on that just a little bit?

In addition, I want to ask about enforcement. Right now—and you touched on it in your opening statement—the government does these on-call type reviews as well as giving the employer advance notice. What do you think should be done in terms of the enforcement part of this situation?

Special Rapporteur on Contemporary Forms of Slavery, United Nations, As an Individual
Tomoya Obokata

The regularization basically means to take the illegal status out of them so they will return to some kind of an immigration status allowing them to receive all the support that they need, particularly when they are being exploited. I think that's happening in various parts of the country. If they are victims, then they should be protected.

I think Australia just recently passed legislation on employer compliance and increasing the protection for undocumented migrant workers. I think that is a good move. I do hope that Canada could also move towards that.

On the enforcement, sorry, could you repeat that?

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Yes, on the question around enforcement, what do you think the government should do? Should the government be really embarking on practices of notifying the employer that they are coming or simply giving them a call, as opposed to visiting them unannounced on site to ensure that there are no violations?

Special Rapporteur on Contemporary Forms of Slavery, United Nations, As an Individual
Tomoya Obokata

Yes, I think more unannounced visits should happen.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Finally, some witnesses were suggesting that putting in a process for these workers to form a union would better protect their rights. Would you support that recommendation of unionization for these migrant workers?

Special Rapporteur on Contemporary Forms of Slavery, United Nations, As an Individual
Tomoya Obokata

Absolutely, yes. That's a fundamental right guaranteed under international human rights and labour laws. They should have that opportunity equally with Canadian citizens.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

One issue that people have raised is getting legal representation when they face exploitation. Many people can't afford it and don't have that advocacy. Would you support the government's providing resources to support migrant workers to access legal representation?

Special Rapporteur on Contemporary Forms of Slavery, United Nations, As an Individual
Tomoya Obokata

Yes, I think that's a sensible move. I think that would be a very positive step forward.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you very much, Mr. Obokata, for appearing.

I'm going to suspend the meeting. We'll go in camera now.

[Proceedings continue in camera]

https://openparliament.ca/committees/immigration/44-1/92/jenny-kwan-1/

Latest posts

CIMM#115: Pension Transferability and Access to Mandatory Provident Fund (MPF), and Delays in Permanent Residence and Visas for Hong Kongers Recent Reforms to the International Student Program

James McNamee, Director General, Family and Social Immigration Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
I would say that's generally the case. If the work permit they obtained was originally connected to the public policy, that's correct. I don't know if that's the situation in all cases. In some cases, applicants may have had an LMIA-based work permit to begin with.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC, NDP
That's right. However, under the special immigration measure, the LMIA is not required. I have a list of applicants in those circumstances. Their work permit renewal application was rejected. They were asked to submit an LMIA, which makes no sense. I want to flag that as a deep concern now emerging for people whose open work permits are being rejected as they wait for their permanent resident status. At this rate, given the immigration levels plan numbers and the processing delays happening, and with the number of applicants in place, you can imagine that it's going to take something like eight years to get through the backlog of people getting their PR status. This means that if they are trying to get their pension, they will not be able to do so for eight years, because they are required to provide proof of permanent residence.
I want to flag this as a major concern. I hope the department will take action to fix the error being applied to applicants whose open work permits are being rejected under this stream. Can I get a confirmation from officials that this will be undertaken?

James McNamee, Director General, Family and Social Immigration Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Yes, that issue has been raised with the department already, and we're looking into it to see what exactly happened in those situations.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC, NDP
Okay. Officials are aware of it, and yet it's still happening. I have cases coming to me that are happening. I'm about to prepare a giant pile of this stuff for the minister, so I hope the officials will fix that. The other thing related to the pension, of course, is lengthy delays for people to get their permanent status. Based on the immigration levels plan and the number of applicants in place, is it the officials' anticipation that it will take about eight years to get those applications processed?

James McNamee, Director General, Family and Social Immigration Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
We have looked at that possibility. Certainly, it will take longer than we had previously indicated to the committee. I would note that the first year of the levels plan is the fixed year. The years that follow, in this case, 2026 and 2027, are flexible. There are opportunities to adjust those numbers in the future, and that could affect that timeline. It's hard to say whether eight years will be the timeline, but it will be longer than had been originally predicted because the numbers have gone down.

CIMM#114: Recent Reforms to the International Student Program

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
Aside from looking at patterns of potential violators—the groups and organizations taking advantage of students with these fraudulent letters of acceptance—will you be including in the analysis what types of institutions are being utilized for these fraudulent letters? In other words, is it private institutions versus public institutions, colleges versus universities and so on? Will that be part of the analysis?

Bronwyn May, Director General, International Students Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
It's not always the case that a letter originates from an institution. We would need to look at various possible sources.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
Maybe I can reframe that.
Obviously, as these are fraudulent letters of acceptance, they wouldn't be issued by the institutions. However, regarding the list of institutions being used for the purpose of these fraudulent letters, I would be interested in obtaining information to determine what percentage are private institutions and public institutions, how many of them are colleges, how many of them are universities and so on. That will tell us very specific information that I think is important when trying to tackle fraudulent activities.

Bronwyn May, Director General, International Students Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
I completely agree. That's a very important line of analysis.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
I will make the further request to make sure you share this information with the committee. I'll argue that this information should not be kept secret. It should be public and transparent—shared with all Canadians—so that we're aware of what the landscape is and of how international students are being taken advantage of. With respect to that analysis, will there be information and data on what countries are being targeted?

Click to read the full discussion from the Committee meeting

CIMM#113: Pension Transferability and Access to Mandatory Provident Fund (MPF), and Delays in Permanent Residence and Visas for Hong Kongers

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
All right. Thank you.
Hence, we have this problem. You have the Canadian government, which created this lifeboat scheme for Hong Kongers who are fleeing persecution in Hong Kong as a result of the national security law. The government, in its wisdom or lack thereof, created this lifeboat scheme that only provides for temporary residence by way of a work permit or a study permit. Then these people have to go to the queue to make an application for permanent residence, and we know that there is a huge backlog and delay in processing.
In the beginning, there was swift action, but as time has passed, it's been lengthened by way of the delay, to the point where the former minister even made an announcement to further extend people's work permits and study permits for another three years. That is to say, a person could be here for six years—as long as six years—under this current scheme without getting permanent residence. This is because the minister anticipated that people would not be able to swiftly get their permanent resident status. That is the reality.
As a result of that, people are not able to provide proof of permanent residence, because the application is in process. To make it even worse, the government—the minister—just made an announcement about the levels plan, cutting levels to the tune of 105,000 permanent resident status applications.
You can imagine how long the wait-list is for Hong Kongers as they continue to wait. Now, these Hong Kongers have zero intention of returning to Hong Kong, because they know that they would be persecuted if they did. People know that. I think the Canadian government knows that.
This is my question, then, to you as the manager of their pension, which, because of this rule, they're unable to access: Would your organization be willing to write to the regulator to ask for consideration for these applicants who are in a prolonged period of waiting for permanent resident status, to ask that their declaration indicating that they do not intend to return to Hong Kong be accepted as proof that they intend to leave Hong Kong permanently so that they can access their pensions? Is that something that your organization would consider doing?

Maryscott Greenwood, Global Head, Government Relations, The Manufacturers Life Insurance Company
I think I understand the question.
The basic premise of your question has to do with the period of time it takes for the Government of Canada to determine and provide permanent residency or citizenship. It seems to me that this is a function of the Government of Canada, as opposed to a regulated entity. That's how I would answer that.

Laura Hewitt, Senior Vice-President and Head, Global Government Affairs and Public Policy, Sun Life Financial Services of Canada Inc.
Yes. I would say that it's not within our authority to change the criteria.
However, our numbers show that once that permanent residency does come through, we're able to process the applications and approve Canadian permanent residents.

CIMM#92: Closed Work Permits, Temporary Foreign Workers and Committee Business

Latest posts

CIMM#115: Pension Transferability and Access to Mandatory Provident Fund (MPF), and Delays in Permanent Residence and Visas for Hong Kongers Recent Reforms to the International Student Program

CIMM#114: Recent Reforms to the International Student Program

Click to read the full discussion from the Committee meeting

CIMM#113: Pension Transferability and Access to Mandatory Provident Fund (MPF), and Delays in Permanent Residence and Visas for Hong Kongers

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