Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 22nd, 2023
Evidence of meeting #55 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session.
5:15 p.m.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
I thank the minister and her officials for being here today.
In the minister's introduction, she talked about the laws that need to be changed. The bill has been introduced. Recommendation 11 of the Afghanistan special committee calls for the government to “review the anti-terrorism financing provisions under the Criminal Code and urgently take any legislative steps necessary to ensure those provisions do not unduly restrict legitimate humanitarian action that complies with international humanitarian principles and law.”
Doctors Without Borders has raised a concern. They do not support the changes tabled by the government. They are instead encouraging the government to enact a full humanitarian exemption, as recommended by their committee. They say the idea that someone could be charged with a crime for providing medical care to a patient in a hospital during a conflict is ridiculous and out of step with the international humanitarian law that explicitly prohibits punishing a person for upholding medical ethics:
The legislation proposed by Canada today requires humanitarian organizations to seek permission from the Canadian government before we send medical staff to respond to some humanitarian crises—what happens if they say no? Do we walk away from maternity hospitals or primary health clinics? The Geneva Conventions and International Humanitarian Law clearly state that countries have an obligation to facilitate the delivery of humanitarian assistance and a duty to not criminalize the work performed according to medical ethics, yet that's exactly what this legislation does.
That's a quote from Jason Nickerson, humanitarian representative to Canada, Doctors Without Borders.
My question to the minister is this: Why didn't the government put in the full humanitarian exemption?
Mélanie Joly Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC
LiberalThat is the question your colleague Alexis was asking me before, Jenny.
Our goal was to make sure we could balance the questions of having a strong stance and not funding any form of terrorist organization while making sure we support humanitarian aid in Afghanistan.
If you and this committee have good recommendations to make, we will obviously study them, as we did during the Afghanistan study. We want to work with humanitarian organizations because we want this to work. Of course, we value Doctors Without Borders. This is a well-known organization in my home province. We will continue to make sure that we can support them, that they can benefit from Canada's humanitarian aid, and, at the same time, that they can help the very Afghan people who need their support in dire circumstances.
While I am saying this to you, my colleague, the Minister of International Development, is the one who can go into much more detail on this aspect. He will obviously have my full support.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
Thank you, Minister.
The whole Afghanistan issue is a whole-of-government endeavour. I remember that at the Afghanistan committee, when we asked this question of the Minister of International Development, he said that it wasn't him and that we should go talk to the justice department. Everybody bounced the ball around and said, “Not me,” so here we are.
We have a piece of legislation, and it falls short and is not consistent with the recommendations. I guess the takeaway here, which I think I'm happy to hear in part, is this: Maybe the government is open to amendments to see how we can adjust this, because Doctors Without Borders are clearly saying that this is not going to work. If it's not going to work, then we need to do better. We're already slow to the game, truth be told, and for many people who needed aid and help, Canada was not there, while other countries made it.
I'm going to park it there, but I do want to flag it, and I think that organizations and NGOs also flagged it to say that consultation was not done very well. With all this time that's passed, they also flagged that concern. We'll have more time to get to it when the legislation gets into the committee stage for debate, I am sure.
I want to turn for a minute to the issue around Afghans who have been left behind. There are many who have worked for GAC and there are many who have been supported by GAC, funded by the Canadian government. These are NGOs and particularly organizations that supported women and fought for women's rights and democracy, and they've been left behind. This arbitrary number of 40,000 came from I don't know where.
Will the minister support lifting that arbitrary number so more of the people who participated and worked with Canada can get to safety?
Mélanie Joly Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC
Liberal
I'll say a couple things. To finish off the last point, we've been providing help to the Afghan people in the form of $150 million, so it's not as if we didn't do anything. We have done things and we will do more, so that's one point.
On the question of amendments, Jenny, we're always open to see what can be done and we value your work. You can always count on me to have good discussions to improve legislation. I think the fact that the Minister of Justice, the Minister of International Development and the Minister of Public Safety made this announcement together shows how much coordination there has been among the three of them.
On the question of Afghans wanting to come to Canada, I think 40,000 is a big number and an ambitious target, but I think it's important that we achieve that target, and now we're at three-quarters of it. Nearly 30,000 Afghan people have come to Canada, and I think that Canadians have answered in a heartwarming way, as Canadians do, by opening their hearts and their homes to make sure Afghan people could come to Canada.
Thank you.
5:35 p.m.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
I'd like to turn to the issue of helping get people out of Afghanistan. Many people are stuck.
I maintain that the government needs to lift the arbitrary quota. There are many people who were funded by GAC, the Canadian government, who have been left behind. I have, literally, spreadsheet upon spreadsheet of people who followed the government's instructions to try to get an application and to get a referral and could not do so, and they are in a dire situation right now. I'm going to set this aside for a minute.
One of the issues, of course, is getting people out of Afghanistan, as well as some who have made it to a third country, such as Pakistan. Pakistan issued an edict back in December of last year to say that if you have an expired visa, you will either be arrested and put in jail or sent back to Afghanistan.
From this perspective, with regard to the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the work that the minister and her officials are doing, what are the minister and her department doing to work with these third countries to allow for people to get out?
If they don't have a valid visa, they're not going to get an exit visa either. What work is being done to alleviate that problem?
Mélanie Joly Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC
Liberal
There are two answers to your two questions.
Jenny, I'm a very pragmatic person. My goal is to get to 40,000, and I'm convinced that we can get there. If more work needs to be done, we will do more work. I will work with my colleague, the Minister of Immigration, to see what can be done. Indeed, to your point, the situation in Afghanistan will continue to be dire.
The second answer to your question is.... I think your question is very relevant. The issue right now is that Afghanistan is a really difficult country for us to operate in. We don't have an ambassador right now. There is nobody at our embassy. The issue we have is, indeed, safe passage.
That's exactly what I do when I deal with Pakistan, when I deal with Qatar, when I deal with the UAE and when I deal with Kuwait. How can we make sure that Afghans leaving Afghanistan who have an opportunity to come to Canada can come to Canada? That's my job, and that's what I do.
6:15 p.m.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDPThank you.
With regard to special immigration for interpreters and collaborators, the government announced a new measure for cultural advisers after being sued by family members who had loved ones left behind. That special immigration measure only targets those who worked for the Department of National Defence in Afghanistan between 2001 and 2021. Those who worked for Canada in actuality but worked under NATO or ISAF are not qualified for this program.
Does the department know how many of our cultural advisers who worked for NATO or ISAF are in that category?
Weldon Epp
Assistant Deputy Minister, Asia, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and DevelopmentMadame Chair, I don't think we know the answer to that question.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
Is that something that officials can find out and report back to the committee?
Weldon Epp
Assistant Deputy Minister, Asia, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and DevelopmentWe'd be happy to endeavour to do so.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
Thank you so much. I think it would be important.
It doesn't make sense, right? These are people who are obviously a part of the important work they're doing, and Canada, of course, is a part of NATO, so I would appreciate that. Hopefully, there will be some changes to ensure that those families get to safety.
I want to get back to the question that I asked of the minister with respect to the legislation, and you've heard my comments about Doctors Without Borders. I'd like to get the officials' response to that.
Weldon Epp
Assistant Deputy Minister, Asia, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and DevelopmentJennifer, do you want to take this one?
Jennifer Loten
Director General, International Crime and Terrorism, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and DevelopmentSure.
The legislation was presented in Parliament fairly recently. It'll go through the process, and I think we'll be looking at how it applies. Organizations that have been part of the process and that have been working with us to develop these solutions will obviously have reactions. We're very interested in hearing what those are so that we can get a look at how we can implement this amendment so that it does the work that we intend it to do. I used the word “enabling” a moment ago, and I'll use it again. Our intention is to make sure that these organizations can do the excellent work that we want them to do, and we've been working hand in hand with them over the course of the process of review to make sure that it does that.
However, I would say that the way it's set up at the moment, and the reason that it's not simply a humanitarian carve-out, is that it does enable a broader category of engagement than what would simply be envisioned in a humanitarian carve-out, so we can work, in this case, on education, on health care, on livelihood issues. It's all spelled out in the legislation at the moment. We look forward to hearing from stakeholder organizations what their reactions are to this, and we hope to continue to work in partnership with them so that it works the way it's intended to.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
Would officials be able to table, for this committee, the list of stakeholder groups consulted on this bill?
Jennifer Loten
Director General, International Crime and Terrorism, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
I think we can do that. We want to be a bit careful about the organizations, though. There are security issues. This is not the case at the moment, but it will become so when the legislation comes into play.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDPThank you. We will, of course, be mindful of that. It will be kept confidential.
I'd also like to canvass the officials with this question: What work is being done with third countries to help, for example, Afghans at risk—those being hunted by the Taliban—get to safety?
I understand that officials and the minister may not be able to say, “This is what we're doing”, because if it's put out there, it might shut the system down. However, could officials advise that work under way—or done—is actually bringing people to safety? Is that still in operation, at the moment?
Weldon Epp
Assistant Deputy Minister, Asia, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and DevelopmentCould I clarify that we're referring to work that facilitates exit from Afghanistan, then safe passage onward?
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
That's correct.
It's also about work for people who don't have a valid visa. For obvious reasons, they can't go to the Taliban and say, “Hey, give me a bunch of visas.” Soldiers would put a bull's eye right on their forehead.
How are we helping those individuals ?
Weldon Epp
Assistant Deputy Minister, Asia, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and DevelopmentMadam Chair, the broad answer is this: Through the partnerships we have with Pakistan and the UAE, and working with the United States and others, we'll continue to provide screening we can't do on-site in Afghanistan. This allows us to address valid security and identification issues, knowing many people are fleeing without passports. They're not fleeing with proper identification. That's why we're positioned and are working with partners to do biometric screening in third countries, which allows us to then facilitate onward movement.
For example, a charter flight arrived earlier today in Vancouver—or was it late last night? Another 368 Afghan refugees have just come in. That work is ongoing, to answer your question.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDPDoes that include people who don't have valid visas? Are any people arriving without valid visas?
Weldon Epp
Assistant Deputy Minister, Asia, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and DevelopmentDo you mean valid visas for Canada?
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
No, I mean valid visas for the third country—Pakistan, or wherever they are.
Weldon Epp
Assistant Deputy Minister, Asia, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
I understand.
This includes working with our partners to facilitate, as smoothly as possible, the exit from third countries of individuals eligible for the programs we offer. We recognize, particularly in the case of Pakistan, and to the point the member raised earlier, that there are pressures in some of these communities because they may be overstaying the visas they have, and the Government of Pakistan has chosen, as is its right, to apply fines. We continue to have conversations with governments, including the Government of Pakistan, and we have no evidence to date that these individuals are being refouled or sent back to Afghanistan, so we will continue to work with Pakistan to provide the pathways to allow them to transition, even if they've overstayed or have to pay fines before they can come to Canada.
6:40 p.m.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDPThank you.
I raise this question because the Minister of Immigration was on record as saying that if you don't have a valid visa, you would not be considered as having a valid application in Canada. I hope that position has changed, because by nature, people who are refugees and fleeing persecution are not going to necessarily have valid papers. That cannot be a reason that they can't be considered for an application to get to safety, so I hope the department will work with the ministry of immigration to work through this, because that does not make any sense.
Can I get the officials to provide to committee information on how many individuals, particularly women's organizations, received funding from GAC or the Canadian government in advancing rights? How many of those individuals are there?
Of those, how many received a referral from GAC towards the 40,000 special immigration measure?
Weldon Epp
Assistant Deputy Minister, Asia, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and DevelopmentThank you for the question.
I'm going to try to answer. I have some data here, so bear with me. I'll provide what I can.
For the first part of the question, with respect, I don't think we'll be able to answer in the sense of.... Given the decades that Canada has worked in the country, a full list of all the beneficiaries of the programming we did would be an enormous list.
What we are working on in the role that GAC has played is that as referrals come forward, either through third parties or directly, we assess those criteria. Of those, Global Affairs has been able to refer thousands to IRCC—
The Chair Salma Zahid
LiberalI'm sorry for interrupting. Time is up for Ms. Kwan. Please wrap up.
Weldon Epp
Assistant Deputy Minister, Asia, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and DevelopmentI believe, Madam Chair, that we'd be happy to provide the data in terms of how many referrals have been made and for how many of those referrals IRCC has been able to offer invitations to apply.
We can provide that data. I'd be happy to do so not on your time.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
I wonder if I can ask the officials, Madam Chair, if they can try to see if they can get the data, as much as they can—
The Chair Salma Zahid
Liberal
Mr. Epp has said that he will try to provide it.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
—on how many organizations received funding from GAC as far back as they can go and on how many people who worked for GAC received funding.