Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 29th, 2023
Evidence of meeting #57 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session.
4:55 p.m.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister and officials, for being here today. I think we've been waiting for a long time to engage with you. We very much appreciate this.
The NDP, of course—through my colleagues Heather McPherson, who is the foreign affairs critic, and Alistair MacGregor, who is the public safety critic—wrote to the government on this issue back in December 2021. Subsequently, a follow-up letter was written, in February, to various ministers, asking why action couldn't be taken.
This was especially in light of the testimony presented to the Special Committee on Afghanistan by NGOs that were unable to provide aid on the ground to people who were in desperate need. In fact, World Vision indicated—as did a number of NGOs that came—that, because of these anti-terrorism laws, children were dying of malnutrition. They had packets ready to go and ready to be delivered on the ground, in order to save lives. They were unable to do so.
I'm really struggling to understand why it's taken, basically, two years for Canada to get to this stage, where this Criminal Code change is finally before us for deliberation.
David Lametti LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC
LiberalThank you for the question.
Look, I understand the frustration. Certainly, there was a challenge in front of us, in Afghanistan. It was a rather unique situation: a terrorist sect that then became a de facto government and authority.
My role, in all of this, is to act and look at the legal context. I think we have, now, in this law, a piece of legislation that amends the Criminal Code and works within the Canadian context. It protects these organizations and their very good work on the ground, while respecting the various structures of investigation and prosecution in Canada. It ensures they won't be prosecuted.
This, in my view, is the best way forward. It is in response to a very complex situation.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
Minister, that doesn't answer the question of why it took so long.
In the Afghanistan committee, we had different ministers come forward. Each of us, across party lines—to be honest with you—asked the various different ministers about this. Each of them passed the buck and said it was someone else's responsibility. Ultimately, they pinned it on you, the justice minister, in terms of the law that needed to be dealt with, with respect to the Criminal Code. It's taken two years for us to get here.
I suppose it's water under the bridge, so to speak. It's accepting that lives were lost because Canada took so long. Other jurisdictions managed to do a carve-out without this long, arduous process we have to engage in.
Now we have this legislation before us, and there are still problems.
Doctors Without Borders wrote and indicated they're deeply concerned with the legislation. In fact, they're saying they can't support it. They're saying that it's “incompatible with the level of flexibility and urgency required for delivering emergency humanitarian response.” They indicated that this legislation does not provide for a humanitarian exemption in the Criminal Code to remove any risk that their staff or their organization could be charged with a criminal offence for delivering medical care to a patient in a place where Canadian anti-terror laws apply.
I would love to hear your response to that. Why could we not have brought in legislation to ensure that a humanitarian exemption is being applied?
David Lametti LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC
Liberal
First of all, I disagree with Doctors Without Borders' characterization. The law, as proposed, provides an extremely large degree of flexibility to the Minister of Public Safety to grant a humanitarian exemption, including for the kind of work Doctors Without Borders provides on the ground. I disagree quite strongly with their interpretation. I think this law is adequate to do that. I think it does, in fact, allow them an exemption from prosecution.
Again, I'm not going to pass the buck, in the sense that I won't talk about things discussed in cabinet. That's a matter of cabinet confidence.
The Canadian legal system is such that there are independent prosecutions undertaken by various Crowns across Canada—federal and provincial. There are independent investigations undertaken by police authorities. They are independent of me and the government. There's no way, as the Attorney General in the government, that I can tell a prosecutor to prosecute or not to prosecute. That is a power other countries have, like the United States, for example. They can carve it out.
We can't carve it out in the same way. We needed a piece of legislation. We now have a piece of legislation. We have, I think, a good piece of legislation.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
Okay.
It's still interesting to note that other countries were able to find carve-outs and we couldn't. We lost two years in that process, while there was urgent need for people who were dying.
Now, with regard to the question around the legislation, what Doctors Without Borders is saying is that they would have to apply for a provision to do this work. What if they say no? Should they, then, not provide the medical care?
David Lametti LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC
Liberal
The Minister of Public Safety—and, again, it's a question you can ask him—has undertaken to look at these applications expeditiously. We understand the needs that have arisen—
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
Thank you.
I want to point out one glaring piece. I know Canada provided humanitarian aid through international organizations. What we're talking about is the barrier for Canadian organizations, and that's why this is needed.
Please don't conflate the two aspects, because I think it does a disservice to the Canadian organizations that are trying their very best to do this important humanitarian work. I wanted to point that out.
David Lametti LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC
LiberalThat's precisely why we're here, Chair.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDPPrecisely, but I think to suggest that “Oh, but we're already doing this, so why is there this anxiety?” it—
David Lametti LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC
Liberal
No, I think you're misinterpreting what I said.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDPI'm sorry, Minister. I wasn't—
David Lametti LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC
Liberal
If you don't mind—
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
No, if you don't mind—
The Chair Salma Zahid
LiberalI'm sorry for interrupting.
Please, let's have one person at a time.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDPIf I may finish with my time, Minister, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Immigration made that comment and inferred that, and then you replied to that question. I just don't think that's helpful.
Why we're here today is that we're talking about Canadian humanitarian groups that have been blocked from providing aid, and I think it's unfortunate to go down that road in this strange defence of inaction.
What I would like to ask, Minister, on this question is this: Does this legislation apply to Canadian citizens working for non-Canadian organizations, such as UN agencies or other organizations?
David Lametti LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC
Liberal
I can respond first to that comment because I think you've misinterpreted. Sadly, you've misinterpreted—and in good faith, I would imagine—what I said.
What I said in response to my colleague was that we were doing what we could to help Afghan people through other international organizations. It wasn't meant to replace what could be done to help Canadian organizations. It was doing what we could do at the time in the face of a humanitarian crisis. We did that, and that's all I meant. I have worked in good faith to try to bring forth this current piece of legislation and I will continue to do that—again, to help Canadians.
With respect to Canadians who might be working for other international organizations, my understanding is that they would already be covered by the country of that exemption, but I would ask Robert or Glenn to add to that.
The Chair Salma Zahid
LiberalThe time is up for Ms. Kwan.
We will now proceed to Mr. Redekopp—
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDPI'm sorry, Madam Chair. Could I please have a point of order?
I noted that with other members, such as the Conservative, Mr. Genuis, and such as Mrs. Lalonde, who asked a question of the minister, you gave him extra time finish the questions they asked, but somehow, when it comes to me, that never happens. That's twice that it didn't happen today.
The Chair Salma Zahid
LiberalNo, Ms. Kwan, that's not the case.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
That is the case.
The Chair Salma Zahid
LiberalI am just trying to be fair with everyone, and everyone having the time. I am just allowing everyone to have their time.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDPI'm sorry, Madam Chair—
The Chair Salma Zahid
LiberalThat's what I'm working on.
We will now proceed to Mr. Redekopp.
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Bloc
I have a point of order.
Actually, why am I saying this in English? I guess I'm angry.
VoicesOh, oh!
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
BlocI agree with my colleague Ms. Kwan. The minister had extra time to answer questions asked by Mr. Genuis and Ms. Lalonde. I feel Ms. Kwan at least deserves to have the minister finish answering her question, Madam Chair. Otherwise, it would be unfair and I'm sure you aren't that kind of person.
The Chair Salma Zahid
LiberalI take that Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, but if you go into the blues, you will see that Ms. Kwan has at many times gotten extra time.
Right now, we have to start our second panel. We are tight on time.
I will go to Mr. Redekopp for five minutes, and then we will end the panel with Mr. Dhaliwal for five minutes. Then we have the second panel.
Go ahead, Mr. Redekopp.
Brad Redekopp Saskatoon West, SK
ConservativeThanks, Madam Chair.
As long as she's quick, I will let Jenny ask her question and get an answer from the minister.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
Thank you very much for that courtesy.
The question has been asked. I'm just waiting for an answer.
Robert Brookfield
Director General and Senior General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
The answer is most likely that through, as the minister said, their own mechanisms for international organizations they would be covered, but if a Canadian citizen abroad, for whoever they're working for, wished to apply, they would be able to apply. The legislation applies to Canadian persons and organizations.
6 pm
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDPThank you very much, Madam Chair.
Thank you to the minister and the officials for being here today.
I'd like to get a little bit into the DND referrals, specifically the individuals who are, for example, interpreters for the Department of National Defence or who have served Canada in some way.
Could the minister advise regarding how DND referrals were made and how these referrals are vetted?
Anita Anand Oakville, ON
LiberalDefence serves as a validating partner to support IRCC's policies, including its new policy to facilitate the reunification of former advisers who worked with the defence team and members of their families. It is a supporting role that we play as a validating partner.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDPDND makes referrals, though, for IRCC's consideration. How did you determine who you would make those referrals for?
Anita Anand Oakville, ON
Liberal
Let me ask the chief of the defence staff to pick up where I left off.
Gen Wayne D. Eyre
Chief of the Defence Staff, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence
Madam Chair, we started up a team in our strategic joint staff under General Prévost to help process all of these files. From there, we were able to validate the files and then make a referral from that perspective.
For the exact details, I will turn it over to General Prévost to elaborate.
MGen Paul Prévost
Director of Staff, Strategic Joint Staff, Department of National DefenceThank you, Chief.
Madam Chair, thank you for the member's question.
The files that DND, CAF and my team vet for IRCC are files where applicants apply to the SIM program. We didn't refer on our own files to IRCC as a department. We just make sure that the files submitted to immigration have a significant nexus to CAF—members who have served in Afghanistan with us. We have to establish that link, and the way we do that is by looking at the referrals. Sometimes the Afghan national will submit the names of people he worked for and we contact those individuals. We look at the contracts we had with all the Afghans.
We go through a whole bunch of databases to make sure there was a significant relationship with the CAF, after which we validate that and provide the answer to the Minister of Immigration.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
Given the period in which Canada had armed forces and personnel in Afghanistan doing a variety of different tasks in support of Canada, in the service of Canada, and because these contracts are signed by your department and individuals are put on these various contracts, you have a record of all of that. Therefore, you have a record of how many people served Canada in different capacities in your system—do you not?
Anita Anand Oakville, ON
LiberalOf course, we are continuing to support IRCC in this process, but it is primarily run out of IRCC. In terms of numbers and past files, etc., those numbers would need to be gleaned from IRCC.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
Thank you, Minister. I appreciate that the work is being done by IRCC. What I'm trying to get at, though, is the number of Afghans who worked for Canada under your department, under the Department of National Defence, both by contract.... Some of them were interpreters and some of them worked as security guards or in other capacities.
Is there a figure that the department can provide to the committee of how many Afghans served Canada during that period?
Anita Anand Oakville, ON
LiberalI personally do not have that number with me. I will ask the chief of the defence staff to indicate whether record-keeping occurred and the quality of that record-keeping.
Gen Wayne D. Eyre
Chief of the Defence Staff, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National DefenceMadam Chair, I will try to add some context to the question. This is a very complex situation, and I'll use my own experience there.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
I'm sorry. I'm going to interrupt for a second. I don't have a lot of time, and I'll get cut off momentarily. I just need to know whether or not we can get at this number and whether or not it's as fulsome as it could be.
As best you can, can your provide committee with a number?
Gen Wayne D. Eyre
Chief of the Defence Staff, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National DefenceMadam Chair, given that some of the Afghans who were working with us were contracted through other nations or organizations, settling on a final number, in my view, is probably impossible.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDPDoes DND not have the records of the contracts you've signed?
MGen Paul Prévost
Director of Staff, Strategic Joint Staff, Department of National DefenceMadam Chair, we'll look into whether we can provide a number, but, like the chief explained, some of those people were never under contract with anybody, but had a significant relationship with the CAF. This is part of the verification we do as well.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDPMaybe, for the ones who did have a contract with DND, we can be provided with that number and in what general capacity they worked. That would be a good place to start. There are many others who were subcontracted who were not counted—that's for sure.
Daily, I receive emails. Just yesterday, I hardly knew what to do. I received an email from a former interpreter of the Canadian Armed Forces who applied back on August 26, 2021, and their application went nowhere. It was never vetted. They have sent me contracts, all that kind of stuff, and pictures of their family being beaten by the Taliban. I don't know what to do. I honestly don't. I don't know how it is that Canada had contracts with these individuals who served Canada, and we don't know who they are. We don't know where they are or how many there are.
The Chair Salma Zahid
Liberal
I'm sorry for interrupting, Ms. Kwan. Your time is up. Thank you.
We will now proceed to Mr. Bezan.
Mr. Bezan, you will have five minutes for your round of questioning. You can please begin.
6:20 p.m.Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDPAccording to an ATIP response, between August 2021 and June 2022, 9,512 DND applications were received. On that basis, what we just heard is that 4,498 files have now been processed. That's about half of the applications that have been received or confirmed by DND. We are now reaching that 18,000 number. We're nearing the end of them. That means there's no more room to add more people, when half of the files have not yet been processed.
On this basis, we understand that these individuals are people who served Canada, who put their lives at risk, who put their loved ones' lives at risk and who are now being hunted down. Does it make sense to the minister that the government has put in place this arbitrary cap of 18,000?
Where did this 18,000 cap come from, and does that reflect the actual number of people who served Canada?
Anita Anand Oakville, ON
LiberalI look at the 40,000 number, which is the overall number of vulnerable Afghans we want to bring to Canada—
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDPI'm sorry, Minister, but I'm going to interrupt for a second. I'm going to be very specific. I'm now going to be talking specifically about people who served Canada, and in this instance, who served DND. We're talking about them and not about other categories.
Anita Anand Oakville, ON
LiberalOkay. I understand.
Our role in this process is to support IRCC. IRCC comes forward with, for example, the special immigration measures program for Afghan nationals and their families who assisted the Government of Canada, and DND supports them in the execution of that program where possible.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDPThank you, Minister. I appreciate that, but you are the minister and these are people who served CAF, who served Canada. In many ways, they are extended family members of Canada's military. Do you not think that Canada should extend that 18,000 to bring all of the people who are at risk to Canada?
Until that's done, our job is not done. Would the minister agree with that?
Anita Anand Oakville, ON
LiberalWe are working really hard to reach this ambitious target. We have made significant progress on meeting it, and reaching the goal quickly and safely is going to be the top priority.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDPThank you, Minister, but you have already reached that goal of 18,000. Yes, we need to bring them here, but for all those who have been left behind.... At least half of the applications have not even been processed, and that's not accounting for the people who never got the referral, Madam Minister.
The Chair Salma Zahid
Liberal
I'm sorry for interrupting, Ms. Kwan, but your time is up.
Thank you, Ms. Kwan.
We will proceed to Mr. Bezan for five minutes.