Citizenship and Immigration Committee on June 14th, 2023
Evidence of meeting #71 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session.
5:10 p.m.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDPThank you very much, Madam Chair.
Thank you to the minister and the officials for coming to our committee today.
I also want to extend a thank you to the minister for taking time to meet with me specifically on this issue. I know there are lots of issues on the minister's plate, but I appreciate his taking the time to meet with me particularly to try to find ways to ensure that the students who are victims of fraud are not going to be penalized and punished and to look for further actions to make them whole, so to speak.
With respect to the announcement that the minister made, I'd like to get a clarification on the issue around the inadmissibility based on misrepresentation. The minister said just now that the students who are victims would not be subjected to the five-year ban. Could the minister clarify whether that would mean the record of inadmissibility based on misrepresentation will be erased from their file?
Sean Fraser Central Nova, NS
Liberal
The best mechanism we've been able to identify to overcome the five-year inadmissibility ban is to give, in the interim period while a person is currently on a study permit or an existing work permit, a temporary resident permit that aligns with the remaining time on that document. At the next stage in their immigration journey, whether it's applying for a post-graduate work permit, applying for permanent residence or whatever the next steps in that process may be, we would intend to apply humanitarian and compassionate grounds to overcome the inadmissibility barrier so that it doesn't jeopardize that student's or that graduate's opportunity to continue along their immigration journey.
The reason we've chosen that is a function of the legislative requirements that are in place today. We can use existing tools rather than reforming the legislation to avoid a person's immigration journey being interrupted as a result of the fraud that they were not a part of.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDPThat means it will stay on their record. It would not be erased, but there will be a note to say this will not be prejudice for their future applications. Am I understanding that correctly?
Sean Fraser Central Nova, NS
Liberal
More specifically, it's humanitarian and compassionate reasons, which is an existing exemption under the legislation, but you've more or less identified the correct process.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
Okay. I hope that when it comes to that, it would actually work that way for those students. What I'm worried about is that when you have that bad record, so to speak, that dark mark next to your name, sometimes an official who's processing the application will still say that there's misrepresentation on the record. I want to flag that as a concern, because we obviously would not want to have a second chapter to this issue down the road.
Now, there are students who are in a situation where they have been issued a removal order and they have filed to the Federal Court but, for example, have not yet had the hearing. They are waiting. There are those who have filed and who have been rejected, for example. There are those who have made an application to have their work permit extended, let's say, and they're now out of status but waiting to see what's going to happen to them.
Is the minister saying that with this new task force, those individuals should not worry about all of those outcomes and that their case will be assessed under the new task force?
Sean Fraser Central Nova, NS
Liberal
Look, my background in law before politics is telling me to be very careful, because the facts of individual cases may vary and I don't want to describe in a blanket way that may not capture nuance, but the new process we've shared today, the task force, will be triggered immediately upon an inadmissibility finding at the IRB. You don't need to go through the existing Federal Court challenge to an IRB decision in order to benefit from the process we've laid out before the task force.
I want to be careful not to provide legal advice to people who might be in the middle of a Federal Court hearing. There may be very good reasons why a person chooses to proceed down that path in any event, but for an individual who is not yet at that stage and is going through the IRB process, if they receive a negative decision at the end of that process, they will immediately have access to the steps outlined as part of the task force we've described today.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
If they have not yet received a negative decision.... I'm asking because I've met with the students. I went to Brampton and I met with the students. I've been on Zoom with them. They've called me. Many of them have sent me piles and piles of documentation regarding their cases. I'm putting them all together to submit to the minister's office and the public safety minister's office for consideration.
Some of them are caught up in the situation. In the face of this, they're waiting for CBSA appointments. Because they've been told that they've received their removal order, they're waiting for a CBSA appointment. Should they proceed with that process? I assume that when they get a date, they should show up and present their documents accordingly.
There are others who have filed for Federal Court but have not yet received a date for Federal Court. What should they do? The reason I ask is that it's really important, because it's really expensive for people to go through that process. I know that you, Minister, from your comments, recognize that as well. The question that students are asking is this: Should we not proceed with this and save some legal fees and then go through this other task force process that the minister has set out?
Sean Fraser Central Nova, NS
Liberal
One of the challenges we run into when we're dealing with the existing legislative framework is that simply dealing with this process—when the legislation would still have them go through the IRB process and it could result in inadmissibility—would put us in a situation where we might extend temporarily the status of a person who would subsequently be found inadmissible and would still need to go through a similar process to have access to the humanitarian and compassionate grounds to avoid the five-year inadmissibility.
The individual circumstances.... I want to be very careful not to provide legal advice, but the person who is going through the process should always show up when they're asked by CBSA to show up. They should go through with the IRB process and make their case. It is only the cohort of people who complete that process and are deemed inadmissible at the end of that process who will then require the benefit of the new process we've created today.
I understand that these are many layers of process, but we want to make sure that every individual who is caught up and who doesn't have the compassion given to them that I think the facts deserve still has that last shot through the task force that we announced earlier today.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDPThank you.
It sounds to me like the minister is suggesting the students should go through a dual process: through the Federal Court, if they embark on that process, as well as through this other process. It seems to me that it's a duplication of effort if that's the case, and there are limited resources on all fronts. I will further clarify this with officials and the minister at a subsequent meeting, because this is a critical point. I'm already getting emails from students saying, “What do we do now and how should this proceed?”
A critical question is also, when will the new task force start its work? What is the start date?
Sean Fraser Central Nova, NS
LiberalIt's already under way. The process has begun.
For the sake of clarity, on the duality of the process you described, one reason we had to launch a new process is that the remedies that we wish to issue may not be available. If someone today makes a misrepresentation—innocent, negligent or malicious—they may still be deported from Canada under the existing rules. The new process will help us to overcome that.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDPThen, on that basis, should the impacted students not embark on that process, with this new task force?
We have CBSA also looking into the situation. We have IRCC, the Federal Court and the IRB looking into the situation. We have limited resources here. If the minister is establishing a special task force, all of that will be housed in one place. This cohort of 57 students who have been identified and have been impacted should go through this new process.
Wouldn't that be the proper way of proceeding and the more efficient way of proceeding?
Sean Fraser Central Nova, NS
LiberalI appreciate the perspective.
The process that we've developed is only for people who are inadmissible to Canada and are facing a removal. The IRB process exists to determine whether a person is inadmissible or will be removed.
I won't offer advice on whether a person should or should not make a challenge in Federal Court. That is for somebody to be making a decision on their own on the basis of legal advice that they may take.
This provides a remedy for those who have gone through a process that did not have the ability to offer the same remedy.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
I understand that, Minister, but you indicated that there are 57 students who have been identified and have been issued removal orders. They may not have gone through the Federal Court. They may have filed and not been heard yet.
However, for those who have received the removal order, should they not then embark on this new process under the task force?
Sean Fraser Central Nova, NS
Liberal
If you received a removal order, it would be because you have gone through the IRB process and have been found inadmissible. If you've received a removal order after that process, then yes, you should go through this process. The Federal Court is separate.
I would say, as well, that the existing process can do a better job of investigating criminality. We do believe there is significant criminality with some of the applicants who may find themselves in this position. IRCC, in this new process about the status a person may have in Canada, is not expert or built to make that kind of an assessment.
6:15 p.m.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDPThank you very much, Madam Chair.
I'd like to follow up on the process around the task force. The minister, before he left, said that the process has already started. Does this mean that individuals who have received the inadmissibility order from IRCC or CBSA would not have to do anything, and that this automatically triggers the process for the task force?
Christiane Fox
Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and ImmigrationThe process we set out was really about sequencing the decision. As the minister said, the CBSA will refer matters to the IRB. As soon as the IRB makes a determination of inadmissibility, the department would, in order to prevent the removal order, issue a TRP, a temporary resident permit, in order for the person to stay for the duration of their study permit. During that time, we will look at the case and work with CBSA. The reason we inserted the issuance of the TRP at that moment was to prevent any removals from occurring.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDPThe students don't have to do anything. Will they then automatically be notified that a TRP has been issued for them?
Christiane Fox
Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and ImmigrationThat is correct, yes.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
If the students have a work permit under way, will that automatically be renewed?
Christiane Fox
Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and ImmigrationYes, they will be able to continue either their study or their work as a result of that.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDPWhat about students whose work or study permit has just expired? They might be, because of the situation, out of status. Would they also be made whole and not be subject to sanctions?
Christiane Fox
Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and ImmigrationI would say we'd have to look at that case by case. The TRP would essentially give them their status back, because they would be allowed to stay under the TRP for a duration of up to three years.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDPThey would get implied status.
Christiane Fox
Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and ImmigrationYes.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDPThank you very much for that clarity.
On the issue around how this happened and why it took so long.... One of the issues, as multiple students have said to me, is that through every step of the process, it was never caught: not when the application went in and not when they arrived here in Canada. It was not spotted by CBSA. It was not spotted when they applied for a work permit, for example. It was only in the final step, in many cases, when people were applying for permanent resident status, that this got caught.
My question is about measures to prevent this from happening again. Why is it that the government did not do the check on the documents at the front end? Instead, it's doing the check on what appears to me to be the back end.
Christiane Fox
Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and ImmigrationIt's important to note that—and this is part of the work of the department—in some cases, it was. Over 900 applications were denied, as a result of the fraud, through the same stream of investigation. Why was it that the fraud was detected in those cases and not in others? That is something we will undertake to review.
I would also note that there is, at times, a high level of sophistication. That's why we need to take a look at what tools we need to improve on. I think data sharing is key. If we know exactly how many letters of offer institution X issues every year and compare that against our system, right then and there, at the front end, we can make a determination that we have an issue or that we don't.
These are the types of things we're working towards for the reform of the international student program. It's not perfect. It's one step and there are multiple measures that we layer onto that.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDPIt would be difficult, even if you know how many there are for the year, because it's different stages. If you get the number by the end of the year, let's say, some of them might have already gone through the system. Anyway, I'm sure you're aware of that and I don't want to spend my limited time going through that issue.
Are you saying that, for every application that comes in, there is a vetting process already, and that these are the ones that got missed somehow, for some reason?
Christiane Fox
Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and ImmigrationYes, every application has been vetted.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
Maybe this is a question for CBSA when they come next week, but is it possible that some of these unscrupulous consultants who are identified, or at least known to the government at this point, might have been working in collaboration with Canadian actors here who are aiming to be part of the fraud or scam?
Christiane Fox
Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and ImmigrationI think that is probably best placed with CBSA. I wouldn't want to dive into that.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
Okay.
In terms of the situation with the students and families impacted.... For the students who have already left or been deported, will they be notified that there's this alternative process? How will they know there's another way they can try to prove their innocence?
Christiane Fox
Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and ImmigrationFor the eight individuals who have been removed, we will be reviewing each of those cases and notifying them, if appropriate. If they were in fact genuine students who were here, they will be notified, yes.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
That automatically triggered process for the eight who have been removed, does that include the people who left on their own, as well?
Christiane Fox
Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
I would start by saying that the eight will be prioritized to be reviewed now. The task force will then undertake that.
Michèle, maybe you can speak to the 10.
Michèle Kingsley
Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Thank you.
The 10 who left voluntarily had not been referred to the IRB and there was no finding of inadmissibility for them. They can return. They can reapply to come back to Canada. There is nothing on their file that hints they are inadmissible.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDPThanks very much.
I think the timeline is really important. What the students want, of course, is the quickest process they can go through and then an outcome from that, because their lives were already turned upside down when they learned about this situation, and people are stressed to the max. The quicker we can turn it around, the better. I'm glad to hear that it might be a matter of only weeks before this can all be finalized. I hope that's the case.
I am interested in looking at how to prevent this from happening, particularly in terms of the ghost consultants. The truth of the matter is that ghost consultants cannot be regulated under Canadian rules because they are from other countries, but we know the students are being preyed upon. There was a study done in 2017, and it seems as though there's nothing much we can do.
I am curious as to whether there is an opportunity for us to work with our counterparts from those different countries to establish a clear set of guidelines, if you will, or expectations regarding how these consultants engage and what they need to provide to the students by way of verifications so it will become a requirement, at a minimum, that those consultants who practise there have to provide that information to the students so they can take it upon themselves to ensure that verification is done at the front end.
Christiane Fox
Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and ImmigrationThank you, Madam Chair.
I would start by saying that I completely agree with you on the timeliness of this work. People's lives and mental health have been hugely impacted, so I completely agree with you. That's why we will work through this expeditiously.
To your second point, we definitely share, through our bilateral relations, our missions and our dialogue with other countries, our expectations in Canada and the process by which we want the international student program to work. Your idea of specific guidance is important. We have a lot of documents, but I will undertake to take a look at them and see how they can be improved or how we can look at this situation and then apply the lessons to future communications, because I think we continuously need to provide that guidance.
I would also note that it's important in bilateral conversations, but it's also important from us directly to students.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDPI have one last question. For students who—
The Chair Salma Zahid
Liberal
I'm sorry, Ms. Kwan. Your time is up, so you won't have the opportunity.
We will now proceed to Mr. Redekopp for five minutes.
6:40 p.m.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
Chair, before we adjourn the meeting today, I have one item I would like to raise, which is related to the press release that was issued. Before we adjourn, I would like to speak to that.
The Chair Salma Zahid
Liberal
Okay.
Mr. Ali, you have five minutes.
6:50 p.m.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
This afternoon or late morning, we received the press release sent out from the clerk regarding the motion that was passed on June 7. The motion was very specific in calling on the government as follows:
...to condemn the actions of these fraudulent “ghost consultants” and call on [CBSA] to immediately stay pending deportations of affected international students, waive inadmissibility on the basis of misrepresentation and provide an alternate pathway to permanent status for those impacted, such as the Humanitarian and Compassionate application process or a broad regularization program....
That is the specific language that was passed for this motion.
The press release was editorialized in terms of that language and is definitely not a reflection of the motion that was passed. I remember this distinctly, because there was an amendment that tried to eliminate the words “alternate pathway”. That does not even show up in the press release.
I don't think that is a very cool thing to do. Instructions were given by this committee. We voted unanimously on the language that was passed. However, the press release does not reflect that. I am very perturbed by this. I'm very unhappy about this. I don't think this is an honest approach and I'm just dismayed. In the past, when a press release was issued, it took the language of the motion that was passed, specifically. It didn't this time. There was never a draft sent to committee members for review before it went out.
The Chair Salma Zahid
Liberal
I will have a look at that and I will—
A voiceWe didn't get it.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
I'm sorry. If I may finish, it doesn't matter that nobody got it. Everyone should have gotten it. What I'm saying is this: The press release should reflect the language of the motion, and it doesn't.
The Chair Salma Zahid
Liberal
Thank you. I'll look into that.
I have one thing before we adjourn the meeting.
Yes, go ahead, Mr. Redekopp.
Brad Redekopp Saskatoon West, SK
Conservative
I won't take a lot of time, but I fully agree with Ms. Kwan on that.
Thank you.
Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP
This is not how we do business here.
The Chair Salma Zahid
Liberal
Wait one second. There is one item. I need to get your....
Earlier today, the clerk distributed a draft budget for a new study. Is there a motion to adopt that budget?
I ask for silence on both sides, please. All questions should be directed through the chair, with no conversations across the aisle.
Is there a motion to adopt the budget that was circulated by the clerk?
An hon. memberI so move.
The Chair Salma Zahid
Liberal
(Motion agreed to)
Our next meeting is scheduled for Monday, June 19, and the notice will be published in the coming days.
With that, the meeting is adjourned.
