CIMM#87: Subject Matter of the Supplementary Estimates (B), 2023-24: Votes 1b, 5b and 10b under Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC, NDP

I would say this: I get that there are other factors that have to be navigated through in order to actually get the people to safety. First and foremost, for them to get through the first barrier, is the Canadian government willing to accept them and, therefore, create a policy that allows for it in a fair and systematic fashion, not in a one-off situation? Without that policy change, they can't even get through the first door.

I would ask the minister to act with utmost urgency because people are literally dying. The executive director of UNICEF now calls the Gaza strip “the most dangerous place in the world to be a child”. That is the reality that people are faced with. I think there's no time to waste. I don't think it's a difficult policy to change in that regard.

I would also ask the minister to provide a special immigration measure for people with family members in Gaza so that they can bring them to safety. Again, without a pathway, people have nowhere to go. They have no ability to begin the process to help bring them to safety.

Will the minister be working on that as well?

Marc Miller Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC, Liberal

Recognizing that I am not the sole decider in this.... It's stuff that we are working on with our colleagues at Foreign Affairs and with our partners in the region. It is something, as you've said, that is of the utmost importance.

Again, the policy, perhaps, will not contain everything you're advocating for. It's something that we are working on. It has to be realistic, and it has to actually reflect our ability to extract people, which, I would reiterate for this group, is still extremely limited, even within the categories of people we are trying to get out. I know that you suggested that this is piecemeal, but in cases where we have had facts, circumstances and the ability to get people out in a secure and safe way, we've done so and, I would say, with modest success.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC, NDP

What I'm trying to avert for the government, actually, is to not get into the situation where in the case of Afghanistan there was this hit-and-miss approach. Some people got out and other didn't, to the point where authorization letters that were not official from the department were being handed out. We don't want that kind of controversy. We should learn lessons from what's happened before. It's really important that we do this right.

I would urge the minister to take immediate action to bring in special immigration measures—one, to expand the extended family into the immediate family definition; and two, to allow for people in Canada to bring their loved ones to safety. That includes extended family members. I'll just park that there. I don't want to spend more of my precious time on that during my six minutes, because I want to raise another issue.

With regard to Afghanistan, I've handed a pile of files to the government. I get that you don't want to get into individual cases, but there are cases where de facto dependants are part of that application. Everyone else has been approved within the application except for a single sister, for example, an unmarried sister who will be left behind. There are de facto dependants under the definition of IRCC. That can't be allowed to happen. The minister must understand the grave danger that this woman would be exposed to if she were left behind. Now the family's stuck in this situation trying to make a decision. Do they leave? Do they not leave? This is not a choice.

Why are de facto dependants being excluded in applications? What is wrong with the system?

Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Dec. 5th, 2023
Evidence of meeting #87 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session

4:10 p.m.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you very much.

Now we will go to Madam Kwan.

Madam Kwan, you have six minutes with the minister.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the minister and his officials for being here today.

I would like to begin my questions on the issue with the people in Gaza, more particularly the Canadians and people in Canada who are desperate to bring their loved ones to safety. It was brought up on the issue around extended family members and the definition of family.

Can the minister advise whether he will be making any changes to the definition of “immediate family” to include extended family members, such as siblings, parents, grandparents, nieces, and nephews, many of whom, by the way, are now orphaned?

Marc Miller Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC
Liberal

As I told your colleague, it is something that we are working on. It's not something that I'm going to commit publicly to at this meeting. It is work that we are doing, considering how desperate the situation is. We are looking at who we can get out and effectively actually get out as opposed to simply issuing a policy and not being able, in the next turn of the hand, to actually get people out. There are a number of factors that are outside our control. However, it's something that I think....

I understand the sentiment. I understand the need. I understand the urgency. It's something that we are working on.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Will the minister be working on that as well?

Marc Miller Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC
Liberal

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Why are de facto dependants being excluded in applications? What is wrong with the system?

Marc Miller Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC
Liberal

As I mentioned to your colleague from the Conservative Party, it is difficult to comment on individual cases. I'm not going to say that this is a mistake. These challenges do happen, particularly in the operational contexts we face. Thank you for meeting with my team. I think we have some positive news on a couple of the files. We can follow up with that after.

Again, every case of a person left behind is devastating. We do our utmost to try to get them out. I think we can't dismiss how difficult it is to operate in the region, and I know you're not suggesting that.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

I gave the minister some files and I followed up some additional ones. I haven't really had an update on what's happened with those situations. Many of those files actually include what we call de facto dependants who have been left behind.

Just quickly, when will the government lift the ban on allowing families who want to sponsor parents or grandparents to come to Canada to submit applications?

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you. The time is up.

Minister, do you want to respond?

Marc Miller Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC
Liberal

Okay.

The characterization of it as a ban is inaccurate. We have a limited intake of people. As you know, we do a lottery. It isn't a perfect way to proceed—the previous way not being even as good as that one—but it is about a set number of people.

I know that you object to the cap on this. I know that it creates a lot of personal challenges for families looking to reunite. But that is one that has been decided as part of our levels plan. It is an imperfect mechanism that was put in place to make an even less perfect one better.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Well, based on the lottery, people could buy a ticket—

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you, honourable member. The time is up.

Mr. McLean, go ahead for five minutes.

4:30 p.m.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you. Your time is up, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

Madam Kwan, go ahead, please.

The floor is yours for two and a half minutes.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you.

I just want to go back and touch on the parents and grandparents piece for a minute.

The fact is that the pool has been closed since 2020 for new applications. Come January 2024, it will be four years that people have not even been able to submit an application. As the saying goes, you can't win the lottery if you don't get to buy a ticket. That is the case for parents and grandparents reunification right now for many Canadian families.

I want to go back to the issue around Gaza. The minister said that they're being as flexible as they can be, which I appreciate.

Can the minister advise, on what conditions will the department consider flexibility?

Marc Miller Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC
Liberal

As your Liberal colleague rightly said, there are variations of family configurations that aren't the ones that I identify with, with respect to my own family. There are people who are considered family members who rightfully need to be supported. I think we look at categories of what those look like.

We also look at need. If there's a relative who is disabled or one that needs particular help, I think that's a consideration that we need to be flexible on.

It is also an area where these definitions can become quite broad and it's one that we have to tailor. Clearly, the current definition is one where we have done our utmost, with the current security configuration, to get people out, but it obviously isn't enough.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

What do people have to do to get the minister to make that consideration, if they don't have an application in the system?

Marc Miller Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC
Liberal

We would have to know, first and foremost, for security reasons, who we are getting out. I think there are some real security considerations that go over and above our discretion.

Foremost, we would have to make sure that those people are the people they say they are and that they are, indeed, part of these broader categories. Then, effectively, we have to make sure we have the ability to bring them out in a way where we can make sure that the families stay together.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

As we know, people's homes have been bombed and all their belongings destroyed. Is the minister saying that unless they have identification documents, they will not be considered?

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Honourable Minister, you have ten seconds to respond.

Marc Miller Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC
Liberal

I'm not being as categorical as that, but for the safety and security of the situation, I think we will have to make sure that the people who claim to be part of this category are the people that claim to be part of the category.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

I have children who have been rendered without parents. They're orphaned and they are nieces and nephews of Canadian families.

Would they be able to be considered, under special circumstances, to be brought to safety?

Marc Miller Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC
Liberal

Obviously, these are hypotheticals, but there are also countervailing hypotheticals.

I can't speak on specific cases, but in the case of children, we do worry about their physical safety and also about the challenges with respect to child trafficking, which does exist.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you very much, Minister and Madam Kwan.

We will go to Mr. Godin.

Mr. Godin, we will go to you for five minutes, and then to Mr. El-Khoury.

After that, we will end the meeting with the minister.

Mr. Godin, go ahead, please, for five minutes.

5:15 p.m.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you very much.

I will now go to Madam Kwan.

Madam Kwan, you have six minutes with the deputy minister and the team.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My first question for the deputy is with respect to the people whom the government is evacuating from Gaza. How many of them are immediate family members and how many of them are extended family members?

Christiane Fox
Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Right now, for the committee's benefit, we work very closely with Global Affairs Canada. The assisted departures, in the first phase, were focused on Canadians, permanent residents, and their immediate families.

As the minister pointed out, there were situations where people came through, perhaps with an aging aunt. There have been cases where people have gotten through the border and we have facilitated the next steps of that process. What we are doing is working very closely with the authorities who are managing the list to try to.... In the first phase, our focus was definitely on Canadian citizens, immediate families and PRs, but we recognize that we also need to think about broader families and are looking at what type of action we can take in that space.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

To date, how many of those who have been brought in are extended families?

Christiane Fox
Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Just to make sure, it's extended families and those brought over—so many people are staying in Egypt and are not necessarily coming to Canada or are going elsewhere. Not everybody is coming here. The second, as I mentioned, is that the immediate family was the focus of the assisted departures in phase one.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Could we get a breakdown of the number of extended family members Canada helped facilitate who are now in Egypt, and how many actually boarded a plane to Canada and arrived in Canada? If we could get a breakdown of those numbers, I would appreciate it.

Can I get confirmation that we will get that information for the committee?

Christiane Fox
Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Yes, we can get you that for the committee.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Regarding the interim federal health program, I'm hearing from doctors and people in the health care sector that patients are not able to access the health care service, and that the processing of those applications is severely delayed. I was given an example of people not even getting authorization to begin...the health service. The wait time has been six to nine weeks. It's happening quite frequently in a variety of different health service deliveries, so it is not a one-off situation.

My question for the deputy minister is this: What's going on there? Can the ministry take action to ensure this kind of delay is not occurring and that people are not impeded from getting the health care services they need?

Christiane Fox
Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

I would say that, in certain contexts.... We work very closely with panel physicians across the country. Obviously, people need to demonstrate medical evaluations and assessments prior to making their applications in Canada. I don't think that, at this point, there are significant delays regarding panel physicians. Depending on where you are in the country, there may be a bit of a longer wait. We can commit to come back with that.

Is what you're suggesting about six-to-nine-week wait times specific to a health service once someone becomes a PR? Is it specific to refugees? I'm trying to get a sense of the issue.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

It's specific to refugees. They have not yet received their PR, so they're reliant on the interim federal health program. In this case, the six-to-nine-week thing happens to be for someone in need of physiotherapy. It's not because the physiotherapist is unavailable. It's because they're waiting for the process to be completed so they can start the treatment. That is a six-to-nine-week wait time.

That's not the only example. I have many others, but I'm running out of time.

I'll definitely bring that back, take a look at what the delays are, and come back to you on next steps.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Regarding the 2020 pool for the parents and grandparents lottery, how many people are in there right now?

Christiane Fox
Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

I know 24,000 invitations to apply were sent out in October 2023 for that pool. How many remain in that pool after that invitation to apply.... I would have to check, but we have 5,278 applications in the system.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

I understand—

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

I'm going to stop the clock.

Deputy Minister, she asked for a specific number. How many are left in that pool? I would ask your department to provide the exact number of people left.

Thank you.

Ms. Kwan, go ahead.

↓

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would like to get that number, since the pool has been shut down for three years now. Come January, it will be the fourth year. I'd like to know what the pool was for each year. I would like to have that information.

Mr. Chair, at this juncture, I would like to move a motion:

That the committee issue a letter to the Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship to urgently call on the Government of Canada to lift the 40,000 quota for the Special Immigration Measure for Afghans so that those who risked their lives and that of their family members, including extended family members, to serve Canada are afforded the opportunity to get to safety in Canada; and, further, that the committee issue a news release on the matter.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

I want to make it clear to the committee that there are many things we discuss in camera that cannot be discussed here.

This is a motion made in public, so it is a debatable motion.

Mr. Kmiec.

Tom Kmiec Calgary Shepard, AB
Conservative

Can we get the exact wording of the motion so that we can see it?

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Sure.

Madam Kwan, can you give the wording of the motion, please?

Can we discharge the deputy minister and the team?

A voice

Yes.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Deputy Minister and team, thank you very much for being here.

Greg McLean Calgary Centre, AB
Conservative

Actually, Mr. Chair, before the deputy minister and her officials are discharged....

Thank you, first of all.

Second, can we get the list of the things that Ms. Kwan asked for to make sure that they're on the record—and that we asked for as well? It's not just the top five payees but the full list of payees. Can we also get the 500 service organizations that you're aligned with? I think it says, in your plan, that there are more than 500. That would be instructive.

Thank you very much.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

With that, I would like to thank you, Deputy Minister Fox, Ms. Manseau, Ms. Dorion, Ms. Baird and Ms. Park. The very best to you.

Madam Kwan.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

The clerk already has the motion.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

There is something that was talked about in camera that we cannot talk....

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

I understand. I just [Inaudible—Editor].

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Thank you.

A voice

Mr. Chair, are we suspended?

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

I'll suspend the meeting for a few minutes here. The meeting is suspended.

5:25 p.m.

The ChairSukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

I bring the meeting back to order, please.

Brad Redekopp Saskatoon West, SK
Conservative

Mr. Chair, I move to adjourn the meeting.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

There is a motion on floor to adjourn the meeting. It's non-debatable.

I will ask the clerk to take the vote, please.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair. I have a point of order.

What did you just say?

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

Mr. Redekopp brought in a motion to adjourn the meeting.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP

Was that just now? I didn't even hear him.

The Chair Sukh Dhaliwal
Liberal

You know, I'm very fair chair. I don't take sides. He did move it, and I have to entertain him.

Also, we agreed before that we would have only six-minute rounds because if the bells rang, then we would have to come back. We would go and then come back.

Anyway, take the vote, please.

(Motion agreed to: yeas 9; nays 2)

The meeting is adjourned.

https://openparliament.ca/committees/immigration/44-1/87/the-chair-9/

Latest posts

CIMM#115: Pension Transferability and Access to Mandatory Provident Fund (MPF), and Delays in Permanent Residence and Visas for Hong Kongers Recent Reforms to the International Student Program

James McNamee, Director General, Family and Social Immigration Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
I would say that's generally the case. If the work permit they obtained was originally connected to the public policy, that's correct. I don't know if that's the situation in all cases. In some cases, applicants may have had an LMIA-based work permit to begin with.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC, NDP
That's right. However, under the special immigration measure, the LMIA is not required. I have a list of applicants in those circumstances. Their work permit renewal application was rejected. They were asked to submit an LMIA, which makes no sense. I want to flag that as a deep concern now emerging for people whose open work permits are being rejected as they wait for their permanent resident status. At this rate, given the immigration levels plan numbers and the processing delays happening, and with the number of applicants in place, you can imagine that it's going to take something like eight years to get through the backlog of people getting their PR status. This means that if they are trying to get their pension, they will not be able to do so for eight years, because they are required to provide proof of permanent residence.
I want to flag this as a major concern. I hope the department will take action to fix the error being applied to applicants whose open work permits are being rejected under this stream. Can I get a confirmation from officials that this will be undertaken?

James McNamee, Director General, Family and Social Immigration Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Yes, that issue has been raised with the department already, and we're looking into it to see what exactly happened in those situations.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC, NDP
Okay. Officials are aware of it, and yet it's still happening. I have cases coming to me that are happening. I'm about to prepare a giant pile of this stuff for the minister, so I hope the officials will fix that. The other thing related to the pension, of course, is lengthy delays for people to get their permanent status. Based on the immigration levels plan and the number of applicants in place, is it the officials' anticipation that it will take about eight years to get those applications processed?

James McNamee, Director General, Family and Social Immigration Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
We have looked at that possibility. Certainly, it will take longer than we had previously indicated to the committee. I would note that the first year of the levels plan is the fixed year. The years that follow, in this case, 2026 and 2027, are flexible. There are opportunities to adjust those numbers in the future, and that could affect that timeline. It's hard to say whether eight years will be the timeline, but it will be longer than had been originally predicted because the numbers have gone down.

CIMM#114: Recent Reforms to the International Student Program

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
Aside from looking at patterns of potential violators—the groups and organizations taking advantage of students with these fraudulent letters of acceptance—will you be including in the analysis what types of institutions are being utilized for these fraudulent letters? In other words, is it private institutions versus public institutions, colleges versus universities and so on? Will that be part of the analysis?

Bronwyn May, Director General, International Students Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
It's not always the case that a letter originates from an institution. We would need to look at various possible sources.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
Maybe I can reframe that.
Obviously, as these are fraudulent letters of acceptance, they wouldn't be issued by the institutions. However, regarding the list of institutions being used for the purpose of these fraudulent letters, I would be interested in obtaining information to determine what percentage are private institutions and public institutions, how many of them are colleges, how many of them are universities and so on. That will tell us very specific information that I think is important when trying to tackle fraudulent activities.

Bronwyn May, Director General, International Students Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
I completely agree. That's a very important line of analysis.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
I will make the further request to make sure you share this information with the committee. I'll argue that this information should not be kept secret. It should be public and transparent—shared with all Canadians—so that we're aware of what the landscape is and of how international students are being taken advantage of. With respect to that analysis, will there be information and data on what countries are being targeted?

Click to read the full discussion from the Committee meeting

CIMM#113: Pension Transferability and Access to Mandatory Provident Fund (MPF), and Delays in Permanent Residence and Visas for Hong Kongers

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
All right. Thank you.
Hence, we have this problem. You have the Canadian government, which created this lifeboat scheme for Hong Kongers who are fleeing persecution in Hong Kong as a result of the national security law. The government, in its wisdom or lack thereof, created this lifeboat scheme that only provides for temporary residence by way of a work permit or a study permit. Then these people have to go to the queue to make an application for permanent residence, and we know that there is a huge backlog and delay in processing.
In the beginning, there was swift action, but as time has passed, it's been lengthened by way of the delay, to the point where the former minister even made an announcement to further extend people's work permits and study permits for another three years. That is to say, a person could be here for six years—as long as six years—under this current scheme without getting permanent residence. This is because the minister anticipated that people would not be able to swiftly get their permanent resident status. That is the reality.
As a result of that, people are not able to provide proof of permanent residence, because the application is in process. To make it even worse, the government—the minister—just made an announcement about the levels plan, cutting levels to the tune of 105,000 permanent resident status applications.
You can imagine how long the wait-list is for Hong Kongers as they continue to wait. Now, these Hong Kongers have zero intention of returning to Hong Kong, because they know that they would be persecuted if they did. People know that. I think the Canadian government knows that.
This is my question, then, to you as the manager of their pension, which, because of this rule, they're unable to access: Would your organization be willing to write to the regulator to ask for consideration for these applicants who are in a prolonged period of waiting for permanent resident status, to ask that their declaration indicating that they do not intend to return to Hong Kong be accepted as proof that they intend to leave Hong Kong permanently so that they can access their pensions? Is that something that your organization would consider doing?

Maryscott Greenwood, Global Head, Government Relations, The Manufacturers Life Insurance Company
I think I understand the question.
The basic premise of your question has to do with the period of time it takes for the Government of Canada to determine and provide permanent residency or citizenship. It seems to me that this is a function of the Government of Canada, as opposed to a regulated entity. That's how I would answer that.

Laura Hewitt, Senior Vice-President and Head, Global Government Affairs and Public Policy, Sun Life Financial Services of Canada Inc.
Yes. I would say that it's not within our authority to change the criteria.
However, our numbers show that once that permanent residency does come through, we're able to process the applications and approve Canadian permanent residents.

CIMM#87: Subject Matter of the Supplementary Estimates (B), 2023-24: Votes 1b, 5b and 10b under Department of Citizenship and Immigration

https://openparliament.ca/committees/immigration/44-1/87/the-chair-9/

Latest posts

CIMM#115: Pension Transferability and Access to Mandatory Provident Fund (MPF), and Delays in Permanent Residence and Visas for Hong Kongers Recent Reforms to the International Student Program

CIMM#114: Recent Reforms to the International Student Program

Click to read the full discussion from the Committee meeting

CIMM#113: Pension Transferability and Access to Mandatory Provident Fund (MPF), and Delays in Permanent Residence and Visas for Hong Kongers

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