In Committee

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC, NDP
Through you, Mr. Chair, I'd like to ask the minister this first question. She indicated that 3,700 Afghans were evacuated during this critical period. Could the minister advise on whether all the flights were full in the evacuation effort?

Anita Anand Oakville, ON, Liberal
Of course, I was not the minister at the time, but I'd like to say something very important on this topic. The limiting factor at the airport was not the fact that there were our planes there. The limiting factor was the fact that we had only one slot per day to evacuate Afghan nationals. To me, that has to be recognized every single time we talk about the evacuation. Chief, do you want to add anything?

Gen Wayne D. Eyre
Mr. Chair, thanks for the opportunity to add some more detail to the minister's statement. I think we need to look at this in two periods—pre-August 15, before Kabul fell to the Taliban, and then post-August 15. Before August 15, yes, there were some flights that were not at full capacity. The reason was quite simple. Late in the game, the Government of Afghanistan imposed a requirement for all those leaving Afghanistan to have valid Afghan passports. Those Afghans could not get through Afghan government security at the airport to board those flights. That was the reason that a number of flights before August 15 were not at capacity.
After August 15, shortly after we re-established the air bridge, a number of the initial flights were not at full capacity, because we were just getting ourselves established with our troops on the ground. Finding sufficient numbers of Canadian entitled personnel, in the very, very small window that we had, was a challenge. I will say, however, that in the latter part we certainly made up for those flights that weren't filled to complete capacity by putting many more on the flights than the planes were designed for. There were 534 Afghans in the back of a C-17 that was designed for 200. That's the type of measure our members on the ground took to get out as many Afghans as possible.

Anita Anand Oakville, ON, Liberal
I'll add to that, if I may. You have to remember that there were a number of factors that the Canadian Armed Forces had to take into account in loading those planes. These included weather, fuel, cargo and weight considerations, which all fluctuated with the different types of aircraft that we had on the ground. We had the CC-130J Hercules, the CC-150 Polaris and the CC-177 Globemaster. It is, again, a testament to our Canadian Armed Forces personnel that they were able to do an exceptional job. The fact is that they're highly skilled professionals who were operating under extreme pressure in a fluid and unpredictable environment, and I'm very proud of their work.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC, NDP
Thank you. The empty seats were a result of people not being able to get the passports that were required, because of the changed rules. Subsequently, the flights were over-subscribed to make up for those numbers. That is the gist of what I understand. At the time of the evacuation, did Canada evacuate any Afghans who made it through the airport gates, but were not on the GAC-referred lists or on the IRCC lists?

Gen Wayne D. Eyre
Mr. Chair, the answer is yes. The situation on the ground was fluid. One of the lessons we've taken away from this is the delegation of authority to the lowest levels. Our commanders and our young leaders on the ground made decisions at times to take Afghans who weren't on the list because they were part of a vulnerable community or there was sufficient evidence to believe that, yes, there was some link with Canada. Those are the types of decisions that our people on the ground were making very successfully.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC, NDP
Do we know how many of the folks fall into that category?

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Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC, NDP
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm just looking for a yes-or-no answer from the minister, but not an explanation and a repeat of what she already said.

Mélanie Joly Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC, Liberal
My answer is, if it's the NDP position that the Taliban regime should not be recognized in the Criminal Code, or if it's the position of the NDP that the Taliban regime should be recognized by the...mentioned in the Criminal Code, but at the same time that there's a mechanism for humanitarian aid, I would love to know it, so I'm looking forward to working with her. Thank you.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC, NDP
I would urge the minister to read Hansard, then, because I'm on record with respect to what my suggestion is in dealing with this issue. Can the minister advise if she or her office have been offered any assistance by allied countries with biometric collection?

Mélanie Joly Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC, Liberal
Thank you, Jenny. That's a really good question, because I've reached out to many countries to find ways to be able to have safe passage in Afghanistan, including the EU directly and Germany. Also, obviously, we had conversations with Qatar, UAE and Pakistan. The issue is definitely the question of biometrics and making sure that the security of the biometric facility is ensured.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC
NDP, My question was: Has the minister or the minister's office been offered this assistance by allied countries, yes or no?

Mélanie Joly Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC, Liberal
We've reached out proactively, and I have reached out proactively.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC, NDP
Is the minister saying that she and her office have not been offered assistance by allied countries for biometrics collection?

Mélanie Joly Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC, Liberal
I've had many conversations with many countries, including Pakistan, UAE and Qatar on this, like I mentioned. Our goal has always been to make sure that biometrics could be done and could be done safely, and we wanted to work particularly with NATO allies on this issue.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC, NDP
It's been brought to my attention that the ministry, GAC, has been offered by allied countries to do biometric collections for Canada in their offices or in mobile offices. That was back in January, to my understanding, and yet, to date, this has not been taken up. Why not?

Mélanie Joly Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC, Liberal
We have clear security concerns that, because of the fact that there are terrorism groups in Afghanistan and in the region, any form of presence can be targeted, and therefore there's a security issue. That's been the challenge of the Government of Canada, Jenny. It's how we can make sure that there are biometrics and people brought to Canada, and meanwhile, not create a security issue for Canadian diplomats on site.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC, NDP
It sounds to me that the minister is saying that allied countries are not capable of doing biometrics, which is concerning. A group of 35 lawyers, Shajjan & Associates, was hired by the ministry of Justice to represent the embassy and many Canadian departments with interests in Afghanistan. They worked for the embassy for nine years. They all applied for the special immigration measures. GAC gave them a verbal confirmation that they would be provided an invitation to apply, but, to date, no invitation has arrived.
I wrote to the minister about this, both this minister and the minister of Immigration. Does the minister keep track of the cases referred to IRCC for processing?

Mélanie Joly Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC, Liberal
Definitely. I work with my colleague Sean Fraser. Obviously I've seen your emails, and I've answered all of them with great pleasure. At the same time, it is important for us to follow up, and this is definitely something that IRCC is in charge of.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC, NDP
I raised that with the Minister of Immigration, who seemed surprised and said, “Oh, I haven't heard that”. Of course, I have a list of these individuals who have applied, and it has gone nowhere. I did receive responses from the minister acknowledging receipt of these letters, but no real response. It would be great for the officials to table any documentation to the committee to show that they have, in fact, followed up with IRCC, what the expectations are, and what will happen with GAC with these individuals who are being left behind.

In speaking first to the amendment, I would not support that amendment. It is not to replace the refugee determination process; it is to waive the refugee determination process. There is a distinct difference if you were to replace that versus to waive it. For all the other privately sponsored refugee processes, it is waived, so I would strenuously oppose the amendment.
The other piece, in speaking to the larger issue, I support this motion absolutely. There's no question. It has always been the NDP's view and my view that the government should apply special immigration measures equitably to all the different groups faced with conflict in different regions and persecution in different regions.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC, NDP
Thank you to the minister for coming to our committee. I want to follow up on the former interpreters issue. With respect to the additional documents that are being required of them, many of them would not be able to produce them because they have actually had to burn them. The family members had to burn them. What they are asking the government, in those instances, generally speaking, is to waive the onerous documentation requirements and to provide them with a single travel journey document, so that they can exit Afghanistan to a third country. Will the minister do that, similarly to what is being done for Ukrainians?

Sean Fraser Central Nova, NS, Liberal
Just to clarify, that is a bit different from what is being done for Ukrainians. We can issue single journey travel documents for people who are seeking to come to Canada from Afghanistan or a third country, but they get the travel document after they have completed the process. The challenge I see with what you propose, which is issuing a single journey travel document that would allow them to exit Afghanistan, is that it doesn't actually solve the safe passage issue.  I'm sorry. It looks like you want to jump back in.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC, NDP
I do want to jump back in. First, for them to actually get out of Afghanistan, they need to have that as a travel document. Then we can talk about exiting the third country, but without that first document, they can't go anywhere and they are stuck in Afghanistan. Will the minister issue single journey travel documents for these Afghans?

Sean Fraser Central Nova, NS, Liberal
A Canadian single journey travel document doesn't guarantee you entry into a country, from Afghanistan into Pakistan or Tajikistan, for example. The requirements to enter into those countries will be set by those countries. Having a travel document to come to Canada doesn't satisfy that requirement.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC, NDP
According to the Afghan witnesses, or the witnesses who presented to committee, many of them have actually said that if you present them with a single journey travel document, they will find a way to get to a third country. There seems to be some discrepancy. The minister is saying that even if they got one, they can't get into a third country. They're saying that they could. Even so, the minister is not issuing those documents to them and is requiring them to provide all kinds of documentation, which some of them will not have because they have had to burn them.
That is the reality. I ask that the minister please understand that. If the idea is that the single journey travel document is not a thing that will work, then find a mechanism that will work. Right now, none of it is working and people cannot get to safety.
I want to raise another issue as well regarding the people who have actually made it to Pakistan. I have been advised that there are about 700 Afghans who have actually made it to Pakistan, but Canada has not done the final step to bring them here to Canada. Will the minister organize evacuation flights for those individuals?

Sean Fraser Central Nova, NS, Liberal
Evacuation flights from Pakistan.... There are people who are in Pakistan who are able to leave now. An evacuation flight wouldn't necessarily.... It's a solution to a problem that we're not having right now. The issues facing people who have made it into Pakistan depend greatly on the individual case files, oftentimes on the basis of which a person has entered into Pakistan, particularly when people have crossed into Pakistan in an unofficial way. There's a big challenge for certain people who didn't enter with proper documentation to leave Pakistan, even though they have very good reasons for not having that documentation. I don't think an evacuation flight solves the problem of getting people here. If there are people who have been approved to come to Canada, we're seeing there's an ability for people to be moved from Pakistan to Canada.

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Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC, NDP
I want to thank our witnesses for their presentations and particularly thank the former Afghan interpreters for their service.  As I said to the previous panel, you are part of the Canadian military. There is no question about that, and at this juncture, the Canadian government needs to do what is right for you and your families by bringing them here to Canada expeditiously.
To that point, people have been stuck for more than six months. Over 300 families' applications have not been properly processed. Thirty-five per cent of those have received a file number but are still not here. Not one of them is here, and 65% of them have not even gotten a G number.
On the question of differential treatment, one of the measures the Canadian government has given to Ukrainian nationals is what is called a “single journey travel document”.
If your family members and others like them were to receive this single journey travel document from the Canadian government, would they be able to use that document to travel to a third country and then fly to Canada safely?

Ahmad Shah Sayed, Former Interpreter, Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
Yes. If the government and the IRCC and the high commissions of Canada issued a single journey travel document with a facilitation letter that would facilitate our families, yes, that is possible. That's exactly what they did with the humanitarian program. That's exactly what they did for those in the Afghan nation that they are bringing right now. There are people coming out of Afghanistan with that single travel document.
That single travel document works as a temporary visa. If our families have that document, they can leave the airport and cross the border or board the airplane and go to other countries.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC, NDP
Thank you.  Mr. Zahed, because of the delay in processing by the Canadian government, family members have been stuck hiding from house to house and street to street. They are on the run. People's lives are in jeopardy. One of your brothers is now missing. Other families have also lost their loved ones.  Is it the case that the longer the Canadian government delays this process, the more family members will be lost? How big is the risk for them?

Safiullah Mohammad Zahed, Former Interpreter, Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
It's huge. It's unthinkable. That's what we have been mentioning. The IRCC is keeping us busy with forms and all the screening and everything. We have no objection to any of the screening. The problem we have is that we do not have the time. Time is very limited for us. The more time that the IRCC spends on our applications, the closer the Taliban gets to our families. With their intelligence, their information and their sources, they're going to get to our families. In the meantime, our families....
Personally, I have 15 members living in one room because of the lack of money. I cannot send them money from here. I cannot even afford that much money. The government is asking for forms. They have to come back to their house at some point, if they 100% run out of money, and then it will be very easy for the Taliban to catch them. They're on the list. I mentioned earlier that my dad was shot by Taliban in 2013. I have had to move my family around since then, but not as much as these days. At that time we had government and we we had national forces all over the country, but right now we have nothing over there. So yes, we think the IRCC is wasting time. They're keeping us busy with filling out all those forms and it's giving more time to Taliban to get to our families.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC, NDP
We talked about waiving documentation requirements because it is impossible for people to produce those, especially for families who are worried that they might be caught by the Taliban with documents and absolutely be punished, and so are burning their documents. Are you calling for the Canadian government to waive the documentation requirements? Would your family members who have been supporting the Canadian military on our missions abroad be willing to vouch for your family members? Should that be sufficient for the government to accept, given the high-level security screening that you have already gone through? Once those family members of yours are safely here on Canadian soil, we can then go through the process of the paperwork. Go ahead, Mr. Sayed, and then Mr. Zahed.

Ahmad Shah Sayed, Former Interpreter, Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
Yes. We have all the documentation and all of the screenings from the national defence ministry. I have spoken with them. I have had a couple of meetings with the national defence ministry. They sent all the documents to the IRCC. If the IRCC and the government and the foreign affairs ministry are making excuses about the documentation, then that's why we're asking them not to bring our families directly to Canada but send them to a third country. Send them somewhere where they will be safe. At least send them somewhere where the Taliban will not kill them. Then start the process.
All this documentation, all the screening, all the security problems and whatever they are coming up with, the nonsense information they are sending to us, is just wasting our time. It's because of the game of politics. They are trying to take the credit based on our families. We are tired of these politics. We are tired of the extra information and the extra forms. They could have sent these forms six months ago. They are sending the forms now, and we have to wait another three months.

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Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC, NDP
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Just to add to that, I've also written to the minister on the same issue. I've yet to receive a response. I think it was back in February when the letter was sent. I'd be happy to offer suggestions as to what the minister and government can do to address this urgent situation. I'd like to ask the minister a question. Witnesses mentioned that there were flights that left in the evacuation process that were half empty. I wonder if the minister can provide this committee with information on the number of flights that left in the evacuation where seats were left unfilled and how many of those seats were on each of those flights. Can we have that information tabled to the committee, please?

Harjit S. Sajjan Vancouver South, BC, Liberal
Mr. Chair, one thing I can say is that, in times of crisis like this, a lot of the decision-making is to make sure that the people on the ground have the appropriate delegation authority to make those decisions. I also just want to take the opportunity to thank the Canadian Armed Forces for the tremendous work they did in extraordinarily difficult circumstances. I'm not the minister of defence now, and those requests will have to flow through Minister Anand.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC, NDP
I'm trying to get the stats on how many flights were evacuated, how many seats were on those flights and how many of those seats were filled with people. Then from there, of the people who filled the seats, how many of them were Afghan nationals and how many of them were people who worked for the embassy or were Canadian workers? Can we have that information tabled for the committee?

Harjit S. Sajjan Vancouver South, BC, Liberal
Mr. Chair, that information is held within the Ministry of Defence. One thing I can say is that creating that air bridge was extremely important, that work that Canada did to bring that together. Our folks on the ground did amazing work to get many people out. I just want to take this opportunity again to commend them. Every single day, to be able to witness the tremendous work that they did—

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Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC, NDP
On the question around resources, there's no question that there's a lack of resources for processing the application. The minister indicated at the immigration committee that it takes on average three years for privately sponsored refugees to make their way to Canada. They were contemplating that for the Ukraine situation, and if it's going to take three years, it's too long. You're right that there are too many people who are stuck in the backlog.
What should the government do by way of resourcing this properly so that we can get in the people who have been waiting and backlogged in the queue from other countries, as well as the people who are now in need of refugee status? Should they apply the same immigration measures they have made available to Ukraine so that people can come with a temporary residence permit and then make the application for refugee status here in Canada, or even extend that to privately sponsored opportunities?

Dr. Wendy Cukier, Founder, Lifeline Afghanistan, and Professor, Ryerson University, Ted Rogers School of Management
There are innovative approaches that governments have used in the past. There were 25,000 Syrian refugees who came in four months because the Prime Minister and the minister made a commitment and pulled out the stops. Whether you do it in the way they're doing it with Ukrainians or whether we do it the way we did it with Syrians, it's possible, but it does require resources and, more importantly, it requires shared political will. This can't be a partisan issue; this has to be a Canadian project.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC, NDP
I would agree that there needs to be innovation. Mind you, with the Syrian refugee initiative, the government didn't quite do it in four months, but I get your point. What you're saying is that it can be done much better than what is being done now, and what it needs is collaboration from all the parties and NGOs on the ground to get this work done. If the government's willing to lift the cap and make that opportunity available, I would absolutely agree with that.
I want to come back to the backlogs because part of the problem is this: The government announced the process for Afghans; however, they did not put additional resources into IRCC. Not only are people in other countries with refugee status backlogged, all immigration streams have been backlogged and there's complete chaos. That is the situation right now.
The government says it has put in additional resources, but these are not enough to deal with what we are dealing with right now. From that perspective, should there be a dedicated specific response and resources, both in financial resources as well as immigration levels numbers, to address the issue? Could I get a quick answer?

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Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC, NDP
With respect to resettlement support and getting people to safety, the reality is that the current streams cannot be applied to many people. Many people are still within Afghanistan. The stream that the government has provided is that they need to be in a third country.In the face of this situation, what specific recommendation do you have for the government so that we can ensure that people who are in Afghanistan would be able to access resettlement supports?

Asma Faizi, President, Afghan Women's Organization Refugee and Immigrant Services
We've been asking for this to ensure that they open up the ability of Afghans from inside Afghanistan to seek resettlement. There was a short window where they had opened it, and then it was unclear as to why, but they shut it out. It's very important, and I can give an example.
Just in the last couple of weeks, I've had a number of Canadian organizations that want to help some women who are trapped inside Afghanistan and are in hiding. They were calling me to ask what were their options. Unfortunately, for the pathways that are open for those kinds of cases, they need to be outside of the country.
Canada needs to enable that once again, to allow those from inside Afghanistan to be able to apply for the resettlement program.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC, NDP
You said there was a short window. Do you recall when that window was?

Asma Faizi, President, Afghan Women's Organization Refugee and Immigrant Services
I believe it was in October. There was a two-week window when we were informed they were going to allow the vulnerable Afghans to seek resettlement, and then a couple of weeks later, we found out that it was no longer available.

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Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC, NDP

Well, time is of the essence, and the urgency is clearly there. I can't imagine what it must be like for your workers and your organization to not be able to deliver aid when you see the crisis that exists right now, where children are literally starving. I would say that time is of the essence. We need the government to respond ASAP.

I want to turn to a different question for the representative from the UNHCR. Part of the issue, of course, with the resettlement support—which is not the only solution but certainly part of the solution—is that people within Afghanistan cannot get UNHCR designation. This is an ongoing problem. People have to get to a third country to get to safety to access that.

I wonder whether or not this is an issue that has been brought up by your organization with the minister and what suggestion you might have to address this crisis. Would waiving the UNHCR designation requirement at this time, under these extraordinary circumstances, be appropriate?

Indrika Ratwatte, Director, Regional Bureau of Asia and the Pacific, Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees

As my colleague mentioned, by mandate and international law, refugees have to cross an international border as refugees to benefit from UNHCR's work and solutions. One part of what we are doing right now is really robustly increasing our resettlement capacity in the neighbouring countries, because Afghans are coming across to these countries, but within Afghanistan we have advocated for bilateral mechanisms to enable Afghans to get out of Afghanistan. At whatever third locations they can then come to, we are available to extend our good offices, but waiving that requirement at this point in time, Madam Kwan, I don't think would be possible.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC, NDP

Yes, within UNHCR, that is not something within your authority to do, but it's certainly within the Canadian government's authority to do so, as is allowing people to get to safety. Otherwise people in dire circumstances would not be able to do so.

I wonder, Mr. Messenger, if you've seen on the ground, for the women and the girls particularly who have been actively persecuted or who are in hiding, what they can do to get to safety if refugee status cannot be obtained?

Michael Messenger, President and Chief Executive Officer, World Vision Canada

This is a challenging question. I'm going to ask Ms. McKinlay to answer since she is closer to what's happening on the ground.

Julie McKinlay, Director, Fragile and Humanitarian Programs, World Vision Canada

That's a very challenging question in a short amount of time. The situation is changing minute by minute. We do what we can to support our teams on the ground and encourage them to find the safest point they can, but that does change. There's a lot of uncertainty and lack of clarity, I think, even for our teams who have submitted applications for asylum to other countries. An encouragement would be ensuring that there is a response to those applications so families know what their status is and can plan accordingly, but it's very challenging.

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